The real Enemy

[Bong30]

that is what i think

you need a profit motive.....

Let look at health care... you socialist want healthcare for all....( under the goverment)

I think that leads to the doctors not wanting to be doctors cause they cant make any money......

Then the system just goes downhill from there.

look at Canada

this guys says it better than me.....



Canada's Healthcare System is Bad Medicine
by Glenn Woiceshyn (March 31, 2006)

The failure of Canada's experiment with socialist medicine is readily apparent: long waiting lists and wait times for specialized services, conveyor-belt treatment for routine services, chronic shortages of family doctors and hospital beds, gross inefficiencies, slow innovation, stifling and wasteful bureaucracies, warring “special-interest” groups, and the exodus of good doctors to greener, freer pastures.

It’s still illegal in Canada for private healthcare providers to compete with the government monopoly. Only North Korea and Cuba—two impoverished, brutal, communist dictatorships—still retain such restrictions. And there have been increasing accounts of Canadians suffering severe pain and even dying while waiting months or years for treatments that are readily available in countries that allow private healthcare.

So when the Canadian election was called several months ago, one might have thought that at least one political party was willing to promise, if elected, to de-monopolize healthcare to some extent at least. However, none of the five significant parties—not even Stephen Harper’s “right-wing” Conservative Party—would dare make such a promise. Why not? Because despite how impractical the Canadian healthcare system is, many Canadians regard it as moral. It’s a classic case of accepting a moral code that clashes with reality and harms people.

The moral code underlying Canada’s healthcare system can be inferred from how it is practiced. Everyone has free and equal access to healthcare providers (which naturally generates a lot of demand). Providers bill the government for services rendered. Government pays providers with the money it extorts via highly progressive taxation. Government has the power to restrict healthcare spending (which logically leads to long waiting lists and wait times).

The basic moral principle is egalitarianism—the belief that everyone must be given equal rewards regardless of performance or behavior. Everyone gets equal access to healthcare regardless of what they pay in taxes. And what one pays is independent of how much one uses the system. Egalitarianism is a species of altruism—the moral code which advocates self-sacrifice to others. (The opposite code is rational self-interest or rational egoism whereby each individual pursues their own well being and happiness—neither sacrificing oneself to others nor others to oneself—and social interaction is voluntary, not coerced.)

For healthcare consumers, the egalitarian message is obvious. Don't bother working hard to achieve success for you will only be condemned as "the haves," taxed of your "excess," prevented from securing better healthcare, and told to go to the back of the line. Don’t bother being responsible regarding your health because it won’t affect what you pay in taxes or what services you get “for free.” Imagine the impact on a hard-working teenager if his parents seized his earnings from a part-time job and distributed it—in the name of equality—among his ambitionless siblings.

As for health-care providers, the egalitarian message is also obvious. Study hard for years; work long and grueling hours; develop life-saving skills, but government will dictate your employer and compensation. The public demands high-quality services regardless of the extent to which your freedom and interests are being sacrificed to the "public good"—to hell with individual rights.
Form this one can extract the egalitarian notion of justice: Punish those who are creative, productive and responsible in order to reward those who (for whatever reason) are not. But if justice is the policy of granting to each person what he or she deserves, then egalitarianism is unjust. The champions of egalitarianism seem oblivious to what makes wealth and medical technology possible. They want us to believe that they can punish and enslave achievers and still have piles of money to seize and distribute—that high-quality services and technological advances are possible in a society where those who are ambitious and productive are sacrificed in the name of helping those who are not.

Given this moral code of egalitarianism, it’s not surprising that Canada’s healthcare system is so impractical.

Now consider today's wonderful trend of being offered higher quality computer products and services at ever lower prices, and what would happen if governments seized control and established a government-controlled monopoly offering free computing to all. What would happen to the computer innovators, product/service quality, real costs and government debt? Pretty much what has happened with the Canadian healthcare system.

Why is it immoral to personally benefit from one's own success? Surely, someone's computer innovation or breakthrough medical discovery is not stolen from those who didn't innovate. The aspirations and abilities of people vary immensely, and they expect to be, and should be, rewarded accordingly for their efforts and achievements. An opposite policy—an egalitarian policy—destroys the motivation to innovate and succeed.

Or consider socialist medicine from a somewhat different angle. When government has the power to extort money from people to pay for government services such as healthcare, the providers become directly responsible to bureaucrats, politicians and “special-interest” groups—not to patients. When the patient retains the power to financially reward providers for good service, providers will compete for the money by offering better quality at lower prices, which is what we get in the relatively unregulated computer industry.

There is no rational argument in favor of socialist medicine. It persists in Canada primarily because the majority of Canadians have accepted an irrational and impractical moral code—egalitarianism—which remains virtually unchallenged. Only when this moral code is widely challenged and debunked, will Canadians experience a significant improvement in healthcare. Americans should be wary when politicians such as Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy try to glorify the Canadian healthcare system.




we could debate how dumb the minimum wage is? same stuff

[BlueCat]

I am not going to get into a cut and paste battle with you...it does no good....I can tell you what I know...

Our system of healthcare is failing. Almost half of this country is without any health care. There have been so many cuts to social programs in this country that many people that were covered by state programs had to be dropped and many children were dropped from headstart programs..

When the mental health people are drop from programs where do you think they go? I will tell you THE STREETS...

Don't talk about jobs either..because the people that have jobs and health insurance pay half their checks to be insured. When you have to decide DO I FEED MY FAMILY OR DO I INSURE THEM then the system is failing..

So the poor go to ERs then the hospital over bills them...they pay MORE for services than the insured people do so the hospital can then overbill the state...

In the mean time hospital executives were the five most highly paid CEOs in the non-profit world....those capitalist you beam about are bleeding the country dry...

[BlueCat]

I have a friend that lives in Vancouver..he had stomach cancer...it was going to take forever for him to get surgery so he went to Costa Rica...

It cost 400 a year for a guest to have insurance in Costa Rica. If you are a resident it is free. He paid the 400 bucks months before when he was vacationing there with his family.

He flew back there to see about getting his stomach surgery and kemo.
He got his surgery in a first rate hospital. They provided a bed for his wife and daughter plus they fed the entire family for the 2 weeks he was in the hospital getting treatment. When he got ready to leave he asked what he owed and they said NOTHING NADA it was covered. Lets see you get that kind of treatment in this country...

I have 3 doctor friends that have moved to CR. They took a huge cut in pay but you know when you get older or you grow up I have not decided which it is...you realize money is not the answer...

Social medicine works in some places...when my son was snowboarding in the French Alps he took a bad fall...the first thing they did was bring him a huge glass of beer...which was funny cause he does not drink but he did that night. LOL then they took him to the hospital and he had surgery on his arm and shoulder. He never paid a dime and the treatment was wonderful....

Have you been to any of the countries where social medicine is working or are you just repeating what someone said on fox news?

[Bong30]

Blue Cat i do make those decisions....about insurance, and food for my kids.

It is a balance between free market and goverment help in health care....imo

I never had insurance growing up..... my mom took me to the same doctor that delivered me.... forevever. Help would not charge her some times some times he would. He Just died of Brain Cancer... I was sad. He was the only doctor that could crack my back...LOL
I didnt say the system doest need help It does....it will be a mix of the 2. (D) govenor Bill ritter Co. just added us the the multi state perscription drug plan...That is great. I like to see the big box stores (ie) walmart sell for cheap also.... a balance.

BC, I cut and paste cause there many other people that have way better skills at putting ideas to paper (screen) than myself. I let them do the talking for me. I have never been able to get the ideas in my head down on paper good. The Ideas just get all mixed up. I dont have to tell you im sure, so I cut and Paste. I was going to be an engineer once upon a life..... Drafting, arcitecture, Chemistry, economics, Bussiness.....all make sense to me. English... I cant figure it out......LOL

BlueCat... I have been a factory sales Rep for snowboard companys for the last 5 years.... I was a Buyer for a huge store here in Denver before that. I have been all over the world riding, and the stories I could tell ya....well.

Now that i know you ride there might be hope for you yet........LOL

steamboat is going off right now.......

I have been drinking too much sake....

[BlueCat]

I have been all over the world riding, and the stories I could tell ya....
well I am listening....Bong *tap tap* Microphones on

I don't care what your writing skills are..I don't type like I write, I type like I talk...I assume most people do the same.

I care what YOU think...that is why I made the cut and paste statement...I have read what you are posting... I want to know what YOU are getting from this info you're processing. How you come up with the statements you do...

You seem to have a very closed mind compared to others I have met that have been to countries other than their own...so I asked you to tell me why you feel the way you do so that I can understand..

I just don't understand why someone that actually works their ass off at a real job would be so against socialism. It is not the monster you think it is....and socialism always happens when the divide between the rich and poor is too great. It actually brings the balance back to the people..whether it actually happens or not.

There is no balance between the free market and government and I don't see any in the near future..

They are not fixing the medical problems in this country and their are no freebie doctors these days..The drug programs are a joke. Do some research on the top 5 drug companies in this country and also look at who owns the most stock in them. Better yet look at the lawsuits against them.

Walmart sells cheap Chinese stuff.... when we lived in Rogers Arkansas we hung a Chinese flag from the roof of their head quarters...They are a joke! They came into being promising to ONLY SELL AMERICAN and to treat their employees right. They have failed at both.

In fact those "Only American" signs hung across the doorways in their stores even as they replaced all American made things with Chinese goods. It was protests from Americans that saw what was REALLY happening to this country that made them take down their lying signs....They destroyed all smaller home town stores by selling so cheap they could not compete...Walmart will seller UNDER market cost until they have put competition out of business. Once everyone is gone they raise the prices...Go look in walmart bread is no cheaper, Chicken no cheaper, milk no cheaper....go look! Sure you can buy a cheap chinese microwave but would you really mind paying a few dollars more for a microwave made in America by American workers? How patriotic are you really?

Our American work force is gone and you can thank your capitalist friends for that one. They sold us out to the highest bidder.

There is no balance in this country show it to me....

[HinduKush83]

you are a great socialist keep it up.............

Bong, I have looked over some of your comments and I have concluded that they are quite disturbing and racist. I don't even like visiting this section now because of fear and warmongers like you. You are obsessed with Islamic terrorism. You have this sudden fear that if you are walking down the street, anyone praying to Mecca or praising Allah is a potential terrorist and must be stopped at once because they could have a bomb. Do you carry a gun with you? I bet you do. I think it is people like you who create paranoia and pandemonium. Just because 9/11 happened, doesn't mean that every Muslim wants you killed.

The reason why those terrorists flew planes into your buildings is because of your country's domestic policy and unending support for Israel. Perhaps if the Americans stopped playing the world's police and being a mother to Israel, you might not have people flying planes into your building now would you. Think about it!

In Canada, we don't have to worry about that garbage because we mind our own business! I mean yea we have troops over in Afghanistan, but we certainly are not embarking on nation building enterprises which pisses them off even more! The radical Muslims, in which there are very few want you dead because you play the world's police and support Zionism. They don't hate you for your freedoms, or whatever is left after your President signed them away in the Patriot Act.

I bet you would even report Muslims who are minding their own business to your little Homeland Security building or whatever the heck you call it.

I think you have been watching too much Fox News pal

Why don't you come across the northern border and see what real freedom and tolerance is like! No more Bush to deal with and you don't have to worry about fighting in wars! Shoot me for being a liberal socialist!

[Bong30]

Bong, I have looked over some of your comments and I have concluded that they are quite disturbing and racist.

How is Islam a race? Duuhhhhhh

I don't even like visiting this section now because of fear and warmongers like you.

when you are losing the debate you call names like warmonger. ( i like fuckface myself)

You are obsessed with Islamic terrorism. You have this sudden fear that if you are walking down the street, anyone praying to Mecca or praising Allah is a potential terrorist and must be stopped at once because they could have a bomb.

I am obsessed with it cause they killed 3600 of my fellow ameicans.....


Hitler was misunderstood right?
Do you carry a gun with you? I bet you do. I think it is people like you who create paranoia and pandemonium. Just because 9/11 happened, doesn't mean that every Muslim wants you killed.

When ALL the moderates stand up aginst the radicals, and reform the religon...MY job will be done


The reason why those terrorists flew planes into your buildings is because of your country's domestic policy and unending support for Israel.

Listen motherfucker....NEVER FORGET.... i will never forget the hollocaust.. you might i wont.

Perhaps if the Americans stopped playing the world's police and being a mother to Israel, you might not have people flying planes into your building now would you. Think about it!


Think about it you...........you would like it if Isreal was gone THATS IT.

In Canada, we don't have to worry about that garbage because we mind our own business! I mean yea we have troops over in Afghanistan, but we certainly are not embarking on nation building enterprises which pisses them off even more! The radical Muslims, in which there are very few

You are so stupid....if 10% are radical, what is 10% of a Billion, hint.... erase 1 zero


want you dead because you play the world's police and support Zionism. They don't hate you for your freedoms, or whatever is left after your President signed them away in the Patriot Act.


Listen Idiot thet hate us cause we are Infidels, they were killing us before Isreal, and BUSH

I bet you would even report Muslims who are minding their own business to your little Homeland Security building or whatever the heck you call it.

I dont see Muslims in my town....They mind there bussiness i mind mine they want to go at it.....ill be there huckleberry

I think you have been watching too much Fox News pal

I dont watch fox news Idiot......
Why don't you come across the northern border and see what real freedom and tolerance is like!

why dont you stay in Canada and hate America from afar....

No more Bush to deal with

what happens in 08 dumbass

and you don't have to worry about fighting in wars!

you are so dumb...war is what humans do.

Shoot me for being a liberal socialist!

OK, you asked for it

hey dumbass what size berka will your Mom wear.....


June 13, 2006
Muslims Challenge Canada Detention Policy
Courtroom Jihad Update from AP, with thanks to Stephen:

OTTAWA - Three Muslim men are challenging Canada's policy toward foreign-born terror suspects in the country's highest court, arguing that detaining them for years if they refuse to return to their homelands violates Canada's constitution.
Mohamed Harkat, Adil Charkaoui and Hassan Almrei are accused by the Canadian intelligence service of having ties to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida network. They say they are innocent and have spent years in detention as the government their cases.

The alternative, the government says, is for them to return to their countries respectively Algeria, Morocco and Syria. But the men say that is not a realistic option as they would face torture.

They also challenge the conditions of their detention and the government's refusal to disclose evidence against them. The Supreme Court was expected to hear their arguments beginning Tuesday.

The system "violates fundamental justice," said Paul Copeland, a lawyer for Harkat. "These cases will help determine whether Canada follows the lawless American approach on national security or creates a uniquely Canadian path in conformity with the principles of international justice."

Two other detainees, Mohammad Mahjoub and Mahmoud Jaballah, aren't part of the current challenge but their fates likely rest on the outcome. Both are Egyptian.

Charkaoui, 32, was released on $42,000 bail last year after 21 months in detention on allegations he is a sleeper agent for al-Qaida. He denies the connection but fears he will be tortured if he is deported to his native Morocco.

"I am heading to the Supreme Court with optimism," Charkaoui said in a statement. "Despite the difficulty, we have succeeded in bringing this issue to the fore and gaining an impressive level of support, both in Canada and internationally."



you guys have your problems too....


so get off your high horse.............

[BlueCat]

Bong, I have looked over some of your comments and I have concluded that they are quite disturbing and racist. I don't even like visiting this section now because of fear and warmongers like you. You are obsessed with Islamic terrorism. You have this sudden fear that if you are walking down the street, anyone praying to Mecca or praising Allah is a potential terrorist and must be stopped at once because they could have a bomb. Do you carry a gun with you? I bet you do. I think it is people like you who create paranoia and pandemonium. Just because 9/11 happened, doesn't mean that every Muslim wants you killed.

The reason why those terrorists flew planes into your buildings is because of your country's domestic policy and unending support for Israel. Perhaps if the Americans stopped playing the world's police and being a mother to Israel, you might not have people flying planes into your building now would you. Think about it!

In Canada, we don't have to worry about that garbage because we mind our own business! I mean yea we have troops over in Afghanistan, but we certainly are not embarking on nation building enterprises which pisses them off even more! The radical Muslims, in which there are very few want you dead because you play the world's police and support Zionism. They don't hate you for your freedoms, or whatever is left after your President signed them away in the Patriot Act.

I bet you would even report Muslims who are minding their own business to your little Homeland Security building or whatever the heck you call it.

I think you have been watching too much Fox News pal

Why don't you come across the northern border and see what real freedom and tolerance is like! No more Bush to deal with and you don't have to worry about fighting in wars! Shoot me for being a liberal socialist!

It is really sad because SOMETIMES he has nice things to contribute but they are lost in the hatred and racist remarks like the burka one above. A person loses all credibility when they talk like that...

As for Canada I love your country. I have been to BC, Toronto, Quebec and Montréal. They were all breath taking experiences for me...

I am afraid your government is falling into the same capitalist expansionism as ours...In my opinion you lost control when Chrétien stepped down.

I really liked him...Now your government lets the US cross into its country and do whatever it wants. Why is the DEA allowed in to your country? How can they let Canadian citizens be taken out of their own country? What about Marc Emeryâ??s arrest? I read where a damn Texas state trooper was allowed to make an arrest in BC!

Oh and don't be fooled.. Canadian soldiers were sent to Iraq for the same reason British soldiers were sent. Both governments want their piece of the pie.

I loved your post though I usually agree with what you have to say and I hope you will continue to post in the political forum. We need your vioce here.

[daima]

you are a great socialist keep it up.............

just a little advice..
if you;re going to call another person, dumb, then its probably wise to spell right.

it shouldnt be, your dumb.
it should be you're dumb

socialism isnt a bad thing.

it seems more sane that capitalism, which by the way is a pipe dream for most americans.
Most americans wont ever own a home
Those we send to die to protect the wealthy in this country will never be able to afford a home, with the excpetion of a handful of officers.

Did you know that Cuba has about a 95% literacy rate?
virtually no homeless.
They send more doctors to disasters in the world than any other country on earth.

Hugo Chavez, Venezuela? he is a socialist who is now sending heating oil, for free, to americas poorest this winter to provide them heating oil.
Whats the bush family doing? giving huge tax breaks to americas oil companies who do not give oil to our poor.
anyhoot
wise up.

dai*ma:stoned:

[Psycho4Bud]

Bong, I have looked over some of your comments and I have concluded that they are quite disturbing and racist.

The reason why those terrorists flew planes into your buildings is because of your country's domestic policy and unending support for Israel.

Ummmmmm, pot calling kettle black? If you can't take the uppercuts.....don't throw the jabs.

Have a good one!:jointsmile: