We are brainwashed.... and we're doing it to ourselves

[Great Spirit]

I think you missed the whole point that mrdevious was trying to make. Ya know, there is a forum now for your issue to be brought up and debated.......maybe a poll........go for it!!

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

It's not conspiracy...its fact. I liken it to the Q's response "My superiority is not arrogance, it's fact". Try to have an open mind PB!

Indeed...you have a good one!! :jointsmile:

[Kyrandian]

I place most of the blame on the media. (the rest i save for how we spend 20x more annually on defense than on education)

American media is an absolute joke. A laughable disgrace. I'm a communications student in my senior year in college, i'm majoring in journalism. The inception of the Fox News Channel, and subsequent bandwagoning of the other cable news channels, has done more to ruin political discourse and foster ignorance than anything I can remember in my lifetime. The news in America is sold like product, the networks compete for ratings, and very little important information gets to the public. This explains why every time a pretty blonde white girl goes missing, the news talks about nothing but that for weeks on end. The myth of the 'liberal' media would be my favorite joke if so many gullible people didnt believe it. The 5 (count them) corporations that control every newspaper and TV network in the country are ALL skippered by very wealthy, right-wing CEOs. But that fact seems to escape people who cry foul anytime the media actually grows a set of balls to question Iraq, Bush, or US Foreign policy.

[Torog]

The thing about fanatical devotion to a single side of the ideological spectrum, is that you can find the worst examples of the other side and use it as the face to cover every single person who comes from that perspective. Reading posts from our most prominant members of the political board, it's saddening that our most outspoken members (from both left and right) spend all their time attacking the other wing, and none going after their own. Not to mention, you can NEVER expect someone to support the decisions of those they normally oppose, even if it really is a good idea (George Bush, Jack Layton, Fidel Castro, whoever).

Does nobody live with independant thought and just call bullshit where they see it? Because spending all your time supporting your side and attacking their side, is not using your brain, it's just allowing it to focus in on one way of thinking until it shuts out everything else; then your brain can start believing that anything else must be insanity. Most people are so caught up in their devotion to the side they've picked that they're blinded to the great and relatively equal amount of stupidity, and even possitive qualities, that exists in the right wing, left wing, and every type of person in between.

WAKE UP, and start thinking for yourself; and that doesn't mean finding the right person to tell you how to think for your self.

Howdy mrdevious,

I went against my side,in the past election,by voting for Kinky and every single libertarian on the ballot,because of the border issue and the war on drugs..do ya still think that I'm brain-washed ?

Does having moral absolutes..mean that I'm brain-washed ? Does wanting to keep my country,a decent place to live,that ain't rife with the debauchery and amoral relativism of the liberal mind-set..make me brain-washed ?

I don't look to any man,to tell me how to think for myself..many of my beliefs and opinions,are derived from my 47+ years,of living and raising a family..God and His Son, Jesus..fill in the rest.

I will continue to fight the Good fight..a culture war.

Have a good one ...

[xblackdogx]

Howdy mrdevious,

I went against my side,in the past election,by voting for Kinky and every single libertarian on the ballot,because of the border issue and the war on drugs..do ya still think that I'm brain-washed ?

Does having moral absolutes..mean that I'm brain-washed ? Does wanting to keep my country,a decent place to live,that ain't rife with the debauchery and amoral relativism of the liberal mind-set..make me brain-washed ?

I don't look to any man,to tell me how to think for myself..many of my beliefs and opinions,are derived from my 47+ years,of living and raising a family..God and His Son, Jesus..fill in the rest.

I will continue to fight the Good fight..a culture war.

Have a good one ...

Hey Torog,
Having moral absolutes and striving to keep your country a decent place to live is definitely admirable. However, politicians create false fears (like needing a fence on the border, like saying marijuana is equal to heroin, saying we need weapons in space) and use YOUR moral absolutes to trick you into believing an immoral/unnecessary thing, and then of course they give you a solution for the fake problem. Which got us into the War on Drugs and soon there will be a weapons race b/w russia, china and US for space weapons (even though china and russia publicly said they do not want to pursue weapons in space, but if the US does it, they must)

[mrdevious]

Howdy mrdevious

Howdy Torog.

I went against my side,in the past election,by voting for Kinky and every single libertarian on the ballot,because of the border issue and the war on drugs..do ya still think that I'm brain-washed ?

Very admirable Torog, as long as you think you're voting for the guy who will make life good for the people he/she represents, and I'm sure you did. I still think your "brainwashed", but I think I'm also brainwashed. You see we're all brainwashed to some degree, conditioned to think a certain way till the other side of the issue seems incomprehensible. I'm dong my best to think for myself, call bullshit where I see it, and support a good idea when I think I see one, based on my own logical reasoning. But inevitably, certain mindsets are ingrained in us all, I'm simply encouraging everybody to lessen that influence as much as possible and use critical thinking as often as possible.

Does having moral absolutes..mean that I'm brain-washed ?

You don't need moral absolutes, you just need morals. If you think something is right, then believe it's right and live by it. But when you make it an absolute, you're saying that you won't objectively consider the other side and make an unbiased decision about it. We can never correct the problems within ourselves if we write our opinions in stone.
As an atheist my stance on god isn't "god doesn't exist", but "I won't believe in god till I have a good reason to believe he exists". If somebody provides me with a good reason, I'll happily change my view.
This is what I mean when I say absolutes aren't necessary. Not that you willy-nilly change your stance on important issues, but that you consider everything critically and never block out the opposition just because you've made your decision.

Does wanting to keep my country,a decent place to live,that ain't rife with the debauchery and amoral relativism of the liberal mind-set..make me brain-washed ?

That's far too vague a question to answer. I guarantee you that there are tonnes of terrible conservatives right along side the terrible liberals. But then to declare all liberalism a "bad" thing clearly speaks of a huge bias on your part and an unwillingness or innability to understand certain liberal points of view.

I don't look to any man,to tell me how to think for myself..many of my beliefs and opinions,are derived from my 47+ years,of living and raising a family..God and His Son, Jesus..fill in the rest.

In my opinion, the word of god is the word of man in the guise of a supernatural diety. But that's an argument for another thread, and I"m sure neither of us will manage to convince the other on that one. One thing we can agree on though, is that Jesus was a very wise man with a lot of good ideas. I think his idea of love and forgiveness, even for ones enemy (AS HE STATED), are something we turn a blind eye too a lot quicker than other messages.
Anyway, I'm not saying that you or any other "far-wingers" are 100% controlled by their conditioned ideology, but it undeniably plays its part.

I will continue to fight the Good fight..a culture war.

That fight is one that's been raging since the beginning of society. People like to believe that "liberals" and "conservatives" are a relatively new phemonenon, but it's the same stuff that's been going on since humans have been around. You have the "conservatives", those who wish to preserve traditional values and ideas, and "liberals", those who seek to go against the established norm to perpetuate their plan for a better world; and of course, this is sometimes a good thing, and sometimes a bad thing.

There are stricter definitions for liberalism and conservatism that were coined from the mid 18th century on, and I find it ironic that Classical Liberalism is in many ways closer to what some conservatives want, and modern conservatism doesn't even reflect parts of their original ideology. Then there's our wonderfull friend Reform Liberalism, which was developed later and is actually responsible for ideology driving the "liberals" of today.

I would really recommend you read up on the roots of Liberalism, Liberal democracies, Conservatism, Classical liberalism, and Reform Liberalism. You may be surprised to find out that many of those people you dislike so much aren't very liberal at all, and even more often follow the Reform rather than Classical model (I personally like the classical model better, but no system is perfect).

Have a good one ...

You too buddy.

[Torog]

Howdy Torog.



Very admirable Torog, as long as you think you're voting for the guy who will make life good for the people he/she represents, and I'm sure you did. I still think your "brainwashed", but I think I'm also brainwashed. You see we're all brainwashed to some degree, conditioned to think a certain way till the other side of the issue seems incomprehensible. I'm dong my best to think for myself, call bullshit where I see it, and support a good idea when I think I see one, based on my own logical reasoning. But inevitably, certain mindsets are ingrained in us all, I'm simply encouraging everybody to lessen that influence as much as possible and use critical thinking as often as possible.



You don't need moral absolutes, you just need morals. If you think something is right, then believe it's right and live by it. But when you make it an absolute, you're saying that you won't objectively consider the other side and make an unbiased decision about it. We can never correct the problems within ourselves if we write our opinions in stone.
As an atheist my stance on god isn't "god doesn't exist", but "I won't believe in god till I have a good reason to believe he exists". If somebody provides me with a good reason, I'll happily change my view.
This is what I mean when I say absolutes aren't necessary. Not that you willy-nilly change your stance on important issues, but that you consider everything critically and never block out the opposition just because you've made your decision.



That's far too vague a question to answer. I guarantee you that there are tonnes of terrible conservatives right along side the terrible liberals. But then to declare all liberalism a "bad" thing clearly speaks of a huge bias on your part and an unwillingness or innability to understand certain liberal points of view.




In my opinion, the word of god is the word of man in the guise of a supernatural diety. But that's an argument for another thread, and I"m sure neither of us will manage to convince the other on that one. One thing we can agree on though, is that Jesus was a very wise man with a lot of good ideas. I think his idea of love and forgiveness, even for ones enemy (AS HE STATED), are something we turn a blind eye too a lot quicker than other messages.
Anyway, I'm not saying that you or any other "far-wingers" are 100% controlled by their conditioned ideology, but it undeniably plays its part.



That fight is one that's been raging since the beginning of society. People like to believe that "liberals" and "conservatives" are a relatively new phemonenon, but it's the same stuff that's been going on since humans have been around. You have the "conservatives", those who wish to preserve traditional values and ideas, and "liberals", those who seek to go against the established norm to perpetuate their plan for a better world; and of course, this is sometimes a good thing, and sometimes a bad thing.

There are stricter definitions for liberalism and conservatism that were coined from the mid 18th century on, and I find it ironic that Classical Liberalism is in many ways closer to what some conservatives want, and modern conservatism doesn't even reflect parts of their original ideology. Then there's our wonderfull friend Reform Liberalism, which was developed later and is actually responsible for ideology driving the "liberals" of today.

I would really recommend you read up on the roots of Liberalism, Liberal democracies, Conservatism, Classical liberalism, and Reform Liberalism. You may be surprised to find out that many of those people you dislike so much aren't very liberal at all, and even more often follow the Reform rather than Classical model (I personally like the classical model better, but no system is perfect).



You too buddy.

Howdy mrdevious,

Thanx for yer considered reply ! And being patient with me,enough to do so.

Being raised in a conservative,Christian home and by a father who was very strict,does result in a certain degree of brain-washing,and I'm still working on countering such. I did not raise my child as strictly as I was raised,I used a combination of morals and moral absolutes,with my daughter. I tend to shy away from organized religion,these days..instead of just relying on the critical thinking of a preacher,I rely on myself,to find the answers that I seek to Life. My old man,used to tell me that I think too much..that I just need to stop making excuses for not gitting the job done..so ya see,even when I was a child,I was thinking critically for myself,to some degree.

I do try and consider,what my detractors are saying..not all of it's bad. For example,the tv shows,Wife Swap,Trading Spouses and Extreme Home Makeover,are examples of liberals doing good,whether or not it's intentional or in-adverdent..the results are often positive.

At any rate,I'll try to be more fair and open-minded and look for the good in folks..I usually do such,but given we are in a fight for the survival of the Free World..I find that I cannot countenance any excuses for allowing brutal dictators,to have any sort of reign.

Have a good one ! :jointsmile:

[mrdevious]

Howdy mrdevious,

Thanx for yer considered reply ! And being patient with me,enough to do so.

I'm sure you've been just as patient with me and my different views lol, so no worries.

Being raised in a conservative,Christian home and by a father who was very strict,does result in a certain degree of brain-washing,and I'm still working on countering such. I did not raise my child as strictly as I was raised,I used a combination of morals and moral absolutes,with my daughter. I tend to shy away from organized religion,these days..instead of just relying
on the critical thinking of a preacher,I rely on myself,to find the answers that I seek to Life. My old man,used to tell me that I think too much..that I just need to stop making excuses for not gitting the job done..so ya see,even when I was a child,I was thinking critically for myself,to some degree.

That's really good to hear that you're not just mirroring your parents, but learning from them and taking all their valuable lessons to heart Torog. Our parents are of course a very important part of who we become, and we all have plenty to learn from them, whether it be their mistakes or successes.

On instilling good moral values with your kids, I completely agree with you. Kids these days are getting awful in their lack of moral standards, and at only 21 I'm already seeing a generation gap, seeing the considerably lower moral stanards that kids seem to hold today than they did back in my day. It's sad really.
While our values may not be exactly the same, though certainly the same in some respects, I think I would raise my kids in similar ways. Instilling strong moral foundations, making a firm distinction of right from wrong, and teaching them how to be a productive member of society with a fulfilling and happy life; these are all important things.
When I was a kid I asked questions all the time too. Questions about the way the world works, questions about god, questions about how we can make this world a better place. Thankfully my parents let me ask all these questions as I grew up, and I discovered a lot of things about myself and my beliefs. I hope you'll let your kids do the same too, and something tells me with your experiences growing up, you will.

I do try and consider,what my detractors are saying..not all of it's bad. For example,the tv shows,Wife Swap,Trading Spouses and Extreme Home Makeover,are examples of liberals doing good,whether or not it's intentional or in-adverdent..the results are often positive.

hmmmm, I don't know if I'd call these shows liberalism, but I can see where you're coming from. I think people who are more prone to have a liberal mindset would make these kinds of shows, and often people twist the original ideology behind liberalism to allow whatever twist they want to throw into society. As I said, I think liberal thinking has resulted in our best inovations throughout history, as well as some of our worst. But keep in mind that the crap on television today is only a product of one branch of liberalism that's become popular in the states, albiet not the most possitive one.
There are some real possitive results that have come out of liberalism however (and certainly conservatism too). Like Classical Liberalism, which gave rise in the mid-18th century. Classical liberalism actually advocates that the government should be very limited in its involvement in our personal lives, and it should be up to the people to determine personal morality rather than our government. It encourages a lack of coercion in the various realms of life, such as free speech, religious freedom, the right to private property, and the right to political opposition. It was also the guiding principle for establishing equality of right under law; that is, everybody shall be equal under law regardless of race, religion, gender, or political affiliation. Many conservatives now hold these ideals too, but at one time they went against the established norms, against the "conservatives" of the day.
Then there is, sadly enough, a rise to many liberal ideas (particularily reform liberalism) that gave us stupid ideas like partial birth abortion, or the rediculous standards by which kids are taught in schools these days. A good example of this was a story I read a while back where 3 kids in Florida, in the 3rd grade, were suspended for a week because they were playing outside by shooting their fingers at each other like guns. The principle actually had the balls to say "the other children were frightened" by this. It's just incredible how things like this can get so far out of hand.

Personally I'm becoming really disguested with the decedence of society and how it's encouraged by television and the media. I see millions of people on American Idol sceaming in mindless hysteria over glittering lights and false idols, when the people we should be idolizing are those who are finding the real solutions to the worlds problems, those who work to make the world a better place through intelligent thought and real solutions, not just meaningless glittery contests for mass hypnosis of the populace. Of course I could go on and on with the magazines encouraging rediculous steryotypes of what we should look like, the majority of movies these days that encourage brainless stimulation through pop culture, rather than admiration of our intelligent and noble.

At any rate,I'll try to be more fair and open-minded and look for the good in folks..I usually do such,but given we are in a fight for the survival of the Free World..I find that I cannot countenance any excuses for allowing brutal dictators,to have any sort of reign.

You're absolutely right about that, brutal dictators should have no mercy as far as I'm concerned. But people like myself, who are against the current war in Iraq (I agree with the one in Afghanistan), aren't against it because we like the idea of Saddam Hussein remaining in power. Rather, I think the Iraq invasion was a very strategically poor choice, as well as a poor choice in making allies and not creating new enemies. Saddam may not have been friendly to us, but he was even less friendly to Iran, the real threat. Under his regime the country was kept together, not engulfed in civil war, and a force to counter Iran and keep them in check.
Now we have a democratic nation that is so weakened and unstable that it couldn't possible stand up against Iran in at least the next 20 years. Now we have all our military power tied in this civil war, keeping thecountry together, drawing their attention away form the greater threats of North Korea, Iran, and Syria. America is bankrupting itself trying to maintain a war that didn't need to be fought, and I don't know how they're going to find the funds to launch an invasion of Iran and North Korea, let alone take care of their own people.
Not to mention, when America came into Iraq and didn't find the WMD's that they promised the world were in there, they discredited themselves in the eyes of muslim youth. Young muslim men, who wouldn't have cared about America either way, are now seeing troops in their streets, civil war in their country, and friends and family being killed by American bombs. It's only natural, under such conditions, that a person would grow to hate the person who brought this upon them. If somebody invaded my country or your country, killed half my friends and family as well as yours, filled our streets with troops while our people dying all around us.... well, I'd bet you and I would both be taking up arms and fighting these people as well. And that is why a thousands more people now hate America, when they wouldn't have before. Saddam may have been a terrible dictator, but the hundreds of thousands of people getting killed in this war still had their homes and family in tact when he was in charge.

Have a good one ! :jointsmile:

Happy new year!