If God is real, why are there atheists?

[harris7]

Now lets talk about supporting and proof evidence in relation to evolution.

In science it is very difficult or impossible to produce proof evidence. This is the point some people exploit to bring confusion around evolution.

Evolution does not have proof evidence, it may some day if we are able to watch a species be produced from another. Time will tell, maybe we have already.
I cant say for sure because evidence proving evolution really wouldn’t be that big of a deal in the biological sphere because it is already accepted as fact.

The supporting evidence is breathtaking. The amount of data which fits with evolutionary theory is so large the possibility of another theory also explaining it all is almost impossible. This is why it is accepted as fact.

I admit also, there is a gap between the evidence and the theory (As there always is). For evolution the gap is small, for other theories evolution replaced their gaps were larger.
Essentially science accepts the theories with the smallest gap, then encourages further research to shrink the gap further. (this is basically accepting the best explanation of data)

Important note: the structure of the human knee does not fit with intelligent design. It contradicts it. But the human knee fits very well with evolutionary design. Hmmm
Interesting again. (we can talk more of this)


Science and religion are both structured in different ways. Science structured itself to find the truth. Religion structured itself so that it cannot be disproven.

To be disproven something must make predictions or claims. So the theory of evolution predicted the field of genetics (amazing, I must admit Darwin got lucky on this one)

The only predictions that religion makes are very vague, fuzzy and wide open to interpretation. (following the discipline of fortune tellers)

Realistically since religion makes not solid claims, this claims can never be false. And religion can never be “proved” false.

[harris7]

heres my discussion of the human knee

http://boards.cannabis.com/showthrea...t=88860&page=3

[smoke it]

Simple. Free will. It's God's law. It can't be broken. Every human has choices.

Not a difficult concept.

why would god give us free will if he knew we would abuse it?

[MastaChronic]

why would god give us free will if he knew we would abuse it?

if there is a god, i would guess for the sole purpose of enjoyment.
if there is a god, i would liken him to a kid with an ant farm, he doesnt have any plan for any of us and he didnt give us free will. if there is a god i would bet that the only reason we have free will is not because he gave it to us, but because he cant control us.

[harris7]

I think a lot of people here would be surprised to know that "free will" and humans having it is under strong philosophical debate. and has been for like hundreds of years.

I actually dont believe humans have free will. I am what they call a compatiblist.

---United i remember now that you do believe in evolution. even though i wasn't directing the statements specifically at you. And you are correct, evolution dosn't conflict with creationism. It all comes back, you have very different beliefs than most and i realize that most of what i say probably dosn't effect you; as it is all directed at the more fundamentalist side of Christianity

[harris7]

What's the alternative? If we didn't have free will, we would be robots, and there would be absolutely no point to this life.

looks to me United that your belief has followed what you desire to believe...


let me lay something out there for ya'll to think about,

Does god have free will.

--now wait one second the answer isn't as obvious as you think. Most believers will automatically answer yes to this. Because they see free will as a good thing and they want their god to have it. So lets pause for some rational thought.

If god was all-good (as in infinitely good), all-powerful, and all-knowing. Would this god have free will.


No, i would not think so. This god would be barred from making any decision other than the "best one". (best as in maximizing good)

I also believe that if this god existed then humans would not only be not â??freeâ?� but would be 100% determined by god. Ie. God would have control and would have essentially decided everything for everyone.

Some interesting philosophical though follows. this is the kind of shit i was hoping to get into on these forums back a while ago.

When creating the earth and universe this god would be "forced" to create the best one. Yet this planet is full of evilâ?¦ hmmm. Is this possible if god exists?
(this is the problem of evil)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

(please rebut, or ask any questionâ??s, or I guess you could ask for my arguments for these conclusions )

[Polymirize]

I think a lot of people here would be surprised to know that "free will" and humans having it is under strong philosophical debate. and has been for like hundreds of years.

That's been debated everywhere, true. Including within the scope of religion.

I actually dont believe humans have free will. I am what they call a compatiblist.

Noumenal God?

---United i remember now that you do believe in evolution. even though i wasn't directing the statements specifically at you. And you are correct, evolution dosn't conflict with creationism. It all comes back, you have very different beliefs than most and i realize that most of what i say probably dosn't effect you; as it is all directed at the more fundamentalist side of Christianity

Do you have arguments against the believers who aren't fundamentalist? Who have a progressive view about history and politics and therefore look to the good book for guidance on spiritual matters rather than to decide what do vote for.

all bold my own.

[LIP]

If God exsisted he would love us un-conditionally right? I mean, were his creation, he must love us all. That's what the chritians say. Right?

So, if God DOES exsist, and love us un-conditionally, why is there a heaven and hell according to christians?

Why would he send us to hell?

[The Reffer]

Simple. Free will. It's God's law. It can't be broken. Every human has choices.

Not a difficult concept.

theres the answer right there plain and simple

[mrdevious]

theres the answer right there plain and simple

I don't know if it's "plain and simple". We blame all the shortcomings of the current human condition on freedom of will. God sent down his word, such as through the bible, as a means of guidance to us human beings. But I ask this, how good a job did he really do? I mean if god is an infinite being of perfect wisdom, infinite knowledge, shouldn't he know best how to guide us? Obviously the bible has fallen short of guiding and converting humanity to its ways. Obviously sending one guy 2,000 years ago with a message that's rather hard to believe for many, hasn't been even close to adaquate. Shouldn't this infinitely perfect being have seen that this would be inadaquate and done something better, or something more?
After all, god would know the best and more effective means to guide humanity, yet he hasn't done much. I know people have to choose to accept the bible, but like a parent raising an infintile child, god should know that he can't simply do the minimum, tell us what to do, and expect his child to do the rest and grow up perfect. The child (or society) needs continuous guidance as it grows up to become a responsible, peacefull, and wise person.

argh, I hope that all came together coherently. My mind feels a bit muddled this morning after "not having done acid for my first time last night". Board rules and all, so I didn't do that if you catch my drift.