If God is real, why are there atheists?

[orange floyd]

Lip,

I think you're right. There is no God in your heart. Therefore he doesn't exist.

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God exists in my heart. You guys need proof against something that exists.
You keep seeking for proof, look around, but if you can't see it, there isn't any.
I have substance and evidence so you become the accuser.

Do you guys know the saying about the clay and the potter? Why did you make me this way?

God is real, that's why there are atheists. imp:

what proof and substance do you have for there being a God?

[Platinum Plus]

If ghosts exist than god exists
cuz how could spirits be walkin around?

[mrdevious]

what proof and substance do you have for there being a God?

That's his mystical-sounding way of saying "I believe in god, therefor he exists". In a way this is true though. One who believes in god has the same effect on his life wrought by his belief, whether or not there is a god. God exists in relation to his relevance. God can only be relevant to our lives in relation to how he affects us. If the belief in god affects ones life in the same way whether god is up there or not, the relevance of god's existence in relation to ours remains the same; except for the afterlife I suppose, though theoretically such belief could be made reality (in relation to ones own existence) if consciousness can carry itself beyond the physical body after death.

[harris7]

If ghosts exist than god exists
cuz how could spirits be walkin around?

wow,


Itâ??s funny how atheists have such a better grasp (most of the time) on spiritual issues in general.

Guess what platinum there could be spirits without god.
There could be an afterlife, reincarnation, anything.

oh, and why do you speak of sprits as if they exist? watching too much fox?
They might exist but little support for them
â?¬
Personally I by no means discredit the possibility of â??something elseâ?�
Which could be many things

I explicitly disagree with the assertions of the Christian God

[mrdevious]

If there was evidence, then this life would be easy, everyone would believe in God, and there would be no evil.

Sounds good to me.

There is some evidence, but people just chose to ignore it.

No, people analyse this so-called "evidence" and can point out the gaping logical flaws in other people's interpretation of is. And when this "evidence" is proven to be false, theists simply ignore and continue to spout the same non-sensicle arguments.

The Bible is meant to be evidence, but people lack faith and say it is not because it is "just a book, why should I believe what it says?".

The bible is a book of mythology that claims certain people, dieties, and events occured. The shere existence of a book is not evidence, otherwise all the Roman mythology, Egyptian's Ra, Viking's Thor, and Shintoist spirits in rocks are "evidence" as well. You can't claim something is evidence if it is dependent on faith, then it is just faith. Faith is nothing more than giving in, turning off the part of your brain that questions, and believing because you've put devotion to an ideal before critical reasoning.

Millions of Christian people with masses of faith who are living the way of Christ are meant to be evidence, but when they try to teach people their ways, they're just said to be annoying preachers.

So essentially: "If that many people believe it, it must be true!". That's just silly. At one time more pagan's existed than christians, so how could all those people be wrong? In fact all those millions of believers were proof in and of themselves I guess.
All this shows is that people are willing to turn off their brains and believe something because everybody else does. Hence why we have religion, George Bush as president, the rise of Nazi's, racism etc etc etc....

In this world, no one is going to believe in God unless he comes to down to Earth, picks up a mountain and yells "I AM GOD, NOW CAN YOU BELIEVE IN ME?".

So why doesn't he? "Then there would be no need for faith", right? Well nobody's ever answered why we need faith, why god rewards those who just turn off their reasoning and believe something because everybody around them has told them to do so. Just imagine if you lived in a culture that never heard of god. You're 42 years old, have no religion, then one day some guy tries to convince you all this "god" stuff is true. The only reason he'll give is "you just have to have faith", telling you believing without consideration is, in and of istself, a virtue. Heck, pretend that same scenario applies to my trying to convince you Thor, the blacksmith of the gods exists. Would you just take my word for it because I said there's rewards to be wrought if you do? It's entirely circular logic.

Face it - mere evidence is not enough. Atheists will continue to find excuses to why God doesn't exist, when all it takes is a little faith.

That's right, becauese everybody should "keep finding excuses" as you put it. When every single reason to believe in this supposed diety has an obvious and glarring flaw in its reasoning, we're going to come to the logical conclusion that it's made up and the stories are based on false pretenses. Faith is just a mystical way of saying "just believe because you want to". It's an insult to human intellect, and damaging to it as well as it teaches kids that it's ok to believe something just because you want to.

It isn't about material evidence. It's about living a positive life. "Do unto others."

Couldn't agree more. But that doesn't prove god exists, that's a moral guide to living a good life. And god, whether some monotheists like to push it or not, does not have a monopoly on morality.

[Hamlet]

If there was evidence, then this life would be easy, everyone would believe in God, and there would be no evil.

...and this would be a bad thing because????

[LIP]

...and this would be a bad thing because????

He didnt say it would be bad, but sadly, we all know it's unrealistic, and will definatly never happen.

[mrdevious]

Because that evidence has not been proven to be false. Ever. Much like God has never been proven to exist. Ever. It all comes down to personal perception.

What evidence is that? All I'm saying is that every single argument, interpretation of the world, and supposed "proof" has been a majorly flawed argument. Things like "you can't say god doesn't exist, otherwise you're calling him a liar". Or "God must exist because life is too complex to have happened by accident". All these are easily debunked and have very clear answers, but rather than research most people just say "well god fits as an answer, therefor that proves god exists".

or are you just postulating the old "you can't disprove god" which I and many others have explained a billion times here why that's an incredibly fallacious argument.

Much like I believe being an atheist is just the easy way out.

Easy way out? I didn't choose to be an atheist because I thought dying and blinking out of existence was a nice idea. I didn't choose it because I liked the idea that the good will recieve no reward and the bad will not be ultimately punished. Atheism is the perhapse the hardest way, because it doesn't rely on a big book of simple answers. Instead it deals with the reality that the universe, life, existence as a whole is a very complex thing that is going to require huge innovation in thinking to solve the many problems we face today. Society, government forms, technology, medicine... these things arose because humans took the challenges of life on themselves and figured out how the world works and how to make it better, all by using our own advanced brain power.

I'm talking about the message of love that Christians are meant to spread. When they try to spread it, usually they are laughed at by people who "know better".

Nobody is argueing that love, peace, forgiveness etc. are wrong concepts. We're arguing that the existence of this magical man in the sky that punishes and rewards us accordingly has no valid reasons for us to believe in him/her/it.

You can't make a decision about God without reading the entire Bible. And if I was that 42 year old with no religion, i'd conclude that the message of love and "Do unto others" that the Bible gives makes a hell of a lot of sense.

And a lot of the messages DO make a lot of sense! (though certainly not all). But I'm not talking about that man believing in your moral code, I'm talking about that man believing you that there's this diety who's dictator of the universe dictating right from wrong and that we supposedly have to follow him or be punished/rewarded accordingly.

I follow the Bible for the messages like those. I believe the morality it teaches is amazing.

It coveres a lot, but not everything. Things like forgiveness, peace, not putting one man above another (I think), these are good concepts, albiet pretty simple ones that any human could think up. I don't necessarily agree with silly things like Gays being evil wrongdoers, or beating your kids to raise them right.

And that's why I have faith.

That's why you have faith in the moral code. Then you decided to just expand that to faith in the existence of god as well, so far as I can tell.

To be honest, I guess I could be wrong about God.

Now there's a consideration I've seen few theists give. And I'll say the same, that I cannot definitively say that god does not exist, I just won't believe in him till I have a valid reason to. But I applaud you for at least keeping that consideration open. I find it odd that some creationists can say they believe in god because it's rational, then refuse to even consider anything that doesn't agree with their preconceptions.

But when I die I will die with a sense of satisfaction, knowing that I tried my best to live my life like Jesus taught us to.

I hope you do. Jesus, if he existed (I'm not denying that, but who knows), was a very wise man. But there are other very wise philosophers throughout the ages, and I find it insulting when people tell me I'm going to hell or even just wrong for not following thier leader... as if no other can form a moral code that is also right.

I'll certainly acknowledge that among the creationists I've debated, you're more reasonable than most. I grow tired of the ones that tell me if I follow the teachings of Buddha I'll be punished for following the "wrong prophet". There's great wisdom to be found from many of them. I'd actually recommend reading up on the Baha'ula from the Bah'ai faith. I haven't read his works thoroughly, but he was an incredibly intelligent and insightfull guy from what I've read so far.

You keep talking about these flaws, and these proofs that God doesn't exist. Why don't you tell me what they are?

*sigh* honestly I really don't want to go through them again, I've gone over and over and over it SO many times with others that my brain is going numb. To give you the jist though, I believe that one should not believe in god (or anything) unless there is some valid reason to believe so. Otherwise you're just believing what you want to believe.

I've not only had countless debates, but when I used to believe in god I searched the internet tirelessly (and read a couple books) for 2 years analysing every single argument I could possibly find. I genuinly wanted to believe in god, but I couldn't unless I knew my belief was backed up by rationality. So I read every page out there with every argument I could ever find that gives evidence for the existence of god, and instead I kept finding one logical flaw after another.

If you want me to "disprove" god, I can't. That's not becuase god is so real that he can't be disproved, it's because for evidence to exist it must be based in something that exists. Just as if I were to tell you there's an invisible teacup orbiting a star 10,000 galaxies away, you could never disprove it; but it means nothing, and it's up to me to prove that the teacup does exist. The reason I don't believe in god is because I haven't EVER heard a good argument for him. If you have one, I'd be happy to hear it. I'd be happy to know there's a god of course, that would make my death seem a lot less bleak, and my life a lot more secure. But until then, I won't believe in god when I haven't heard a single rational as to why I should.

[harris7]

There is some evidence, but people just chose to ignore it. The Bible is meant to be evidence, but people lack faith and say it is not because it is "just a book, why should I believe what it says?". Millions of Christian people with masses of faith who are living the way of Christ are meant to be evidence, but when they try to teach people their ways, they're just said to be annoying preachers.

In this world, no one is going to believe in God unless he comes to down to Earth, picks up a mountain and yells "I AM GOD, NOW CAN YOU BELIEVE IN ME?". Face it - mere evidence is not enough. Atheists will continue to find excuses to why God doesn't exist, when all it takes is a little faith. It isn't about material evidence. It's about living a positive life. "Do unto others."

You seem to think that atheists want god to not exist. This isnâ??t true, I would love it if god existed. And most atheists start out as believers, so why would we start making excuses that contradict support for out belief?

Lets talk about evidence, Iâ??m going to put this out there to see what yaâ??ll think
I think there are two kinds of evidence to which we speak of.

The first would be proof evidence (god shows himself)- something that pretty much proves without a doubt that god exists.
-I hope we all agree that this kind of evidence for god does not exist.

The second would be supporting evidenceâ??this is essentially new data which fits in with the existing theory. So if the theory is God something that supports this theory would be, in some peoples eyes, the complexity of life.
-this is a bad example, but I hope you get the gist

I agree with you United, there is some supporting evidence that god exists. (I cant think of any, but am giving you the benefit of the doubt)

The problem for me is the gap between what the evidence warrants and the conclusion some people draw. (please tell me of this evidence I like to ignore?)

You make the opposite argument, that the evidence is so strong atheists must ignore lots of it, not to be convinced by it. This is ridiculous!!!


I think a lot of atheists see it this way: the theory of god does not have enough support for anyone to commit to it. The gap between the evidence and the conclusion is too large.

this gap I speak of is what faith and desire fill

[harris7]

There is some evidence, but people just chose to ignore it. The Bible is meant to be evidence, but people lack faith and say it is not because it is "just a book, why should I believe what it says?". Millions of Christian people with masses of faith who are living the way of Christ are meant to be evidence, but when they try to teach people their ways, they're just said to be annoying preachers.

In this world, no one is going to believe in God unless he comes to down to Earth, picks up a mountain and yells "I AM GOD, NOW CAN YOU BELIEVE IN ME?". Face it - mere evidence is not enough. Atheists will continue to find excuses to why God doesn't exist, when all it takes is a little faith. It isn't about material evidence. It's about living a positive life. "Do unto others."

You seem to think that atheists want god to not exist. This isn’t true, I would love it if god existed. And most atheists start out as believers, so why would we start making excuses that contradict support for out belief?

Lets talk about evidence, I’m going to put this out there to see what ya’ll think
I think there are two kinds of evidence to which we speak of.

The first would be proof evidence (god shows himself)- something that pretty much proves without a doubt that god exists.
-I hope we all agree that this kind of evidence for god does not exist.

The second would be supporting evidence—this is essentially new data which fits in with the existing theory. So if the theory is God something that supports this theory would be, in some peoples eyes, the complexity of life.
-this is a bad example, but I hope you get the gist
-the bible is very poor supporting evidence. there is little reason not to
consider it fiction

I agree with you United, there is some supporting evidence that god exists. (I cant think of any, but am giving you the benefit of the doubt)

The problem for me is the gap between what the evidence warrants and the conclusion some people draw. (please tell me of this evidence I like to ignore?)

You make the opposite argument, that the evidence is so strong atheists must ignore lots of it, not to be convinced by it. This is ridiculous!!!


I think a lot of atheists see it this way: the theory of god does not have enough support for anyone to commit to it. The gap between the evidence and the conclusion is too large.

this gap I speak of is what faith and desire fill