intelligent design > pure accident

[hazetwostep]

harris

i know we could go back and forth on this, but i find all you said very interesting and very mind stratching as i continue searching... i guess for me though the higher power seems to be the easier and more logical explanation.

this is especially in light of personal experience and interaction that i believe i have had in spiritual searching. i guess if you have never experienced that, it would be hard to understand.. i must include that into my calculation and so far i am led to the conclusion of that existence... though i will admit that my understanding of this infinite concept is limited very much by my finite mind. then again i think we all admit we know very little in the grand scheme of things... (96% of matter energy still unstudied)

if we lower the question down to a base asking if i have hard, undisputable evidence of the existence of this higher power, i do not otherwise i would be famous and all over the news! but i never claimed to.. i simply started a post trying to better understand the angle some people come from in life and you have given me a very good glimpse of that! thank you... good luck in your continued search for truth... as we all try to piece the clues around us together to figure out the puzzle of life and existence. i hope you find personal fullfillment in life wherever that is... peace

[Oneironaut]

What an excellent question. The methodology of reverse engineering is fascinating. Problem is a mystery popped up in the midst of the theorem. There are mysteries. Paul in one of his epistles mentioned that he had been shown and mysteries revealed that could not be spoken. Reading your question really stumped me. continuing to read I was struck by how appropriate Delusions response was ("the question is answered by the religious "fact" that god has always existed, that god exists outside of time and space").

Your question is very interesting oneironaut, but Haze really hit it well when he said "We know less than 0.000000000001% of what there is to be known". God is not bound by time. We are. How long have we lived as it relates to timelessness. Your question still changes nothing as it relates to the fact that life here is far too complex to just have occurred. For everything to come together completely (with nothing absent) all at the same time for a cell to develop (with DNA) and for the miracle of life also to come into "being". This shouldn't be ignored.

How do you know that God is not bound by time? How do you know anything about God at all, if God is imperceptible and undetectable?

Saying God is mysterious is no argument at all. I could just as easily say the Flying Spaghetti Monster is mysterious, and since we know so little about the universe, he must be there. Oh, and he doesn't follow the rules of logic, so I can say anything illogical about him and you'll just have to accept it even if you're totally incapable of comprehending it.

Saying that life is too complex to have arisen on its own, but that a life-designer who is more complex than life itself is not too complex to have arisen on its own, is plain illogical. Just saying there's a lot about the universe we don't know does not change that fact. There is indeed a lot we don't know, but we know there are no circular triangles, for logic applies everywhere. The fact that you have to resort to nullifying the rules of logic to account for the existence of your God is the proof that your God does not exist.

[mrdevious]

Not to mention

life here is far too complex to just have occurred. For everything to come together completely (with nothing absent) all at the same time

this speaks volumes about the ignorance behind creationism. Absolutely no understanding of the gradual and complex processes that evolution works through, instead it's "Everything just came together". No gradual process, no specifics on mechanism of action, no research into how life can evolve. Instead everything is just assumed to be *poof* one big result from trillions and trillions of accidents all coming together by coincidence. I really wish people would educate themselves before jumping to overly-simplistic conclusions.

[Herbal]

Not to mention



this speaks volumes about the ignorance behind creationism. Absolutely no understanding of the gradual and complex processes that evolution works through, instead it's "Everything just came together". No gradual process, no specifics on mechanism of action, no research into how life can evolve. Instead everything is just assumed to be *poof* one big result from trillions and trillions of accidents all coming together by coincidence. I really wish people would educate themselves before jumping to overly-simplistic conclusions.

I with him on this one. Think about all the stars in our galaxy. We even have planets orbiting other suns in our system. Now if you were to take out all the stars in the sky that belonged to our system, the brightest thing left shining would be the Andromeda Galaxy, just one of the many thousand galaxies that shine its light onto the earth.
Now based on that, if you think we are the universe was created soley for us humans, go right ahead. I personally think that with all the odds out there that there had to be a correct set of circumstances for life to have existed. Besides, we have already discovered proof that very simple life has existed outside of our world.
Plus to think that this HUGE universe was created only for the benifet of mankind is just as egotistical as declaring your god the only thing that brought about existence.
If God created existence, where did God come from?
Look, based on what I know, I was raised Christian and went to church for years but have also spent alot of time studying our reality with science and math. So to sum it up;
It is just as possible for "God" to have made everything as it is for man to have created "God" to explain the unknown to fill this empty hole in mans mind.
As technology increases everyday and with newer scientific breakthroughs, I believe that mankind will eventually abandon his notion of god, just as his views and beliefs about that god have changed throughout our own history.
You know Jewism use to be a Polytheistic religion before Moses? Infact, the first people to exercise monotheism were the Egyptians, ironicly around the same time they had a bunch of slaves...

[harris7]

Plus to think that this HUGE universe was created only for the benifet of mankind is just as egotistical as declaring your god the only thing that brought about existence.

This dips into my own thoughs, thoughts too complex for this message board, it took me 2+ hours to explain to dutch.lover why i'm pro-choice.
crazy


anyways, egotistical is a very important point. Humans are egotistical, we desire to be superior. I believe this is a biological tendency, something along the lines of trying to be the Alpha-male. I believe it to be the motive behind bullying and similar.

Our innate egotistical nature is why the church placed the earth at the center of the universe; it is also the reason we were created in gods image, and why he gave us his only son. Because we like to feel important!

Who wouldn't join something that tells them they are superior. I would think most people, look at Germany in the WW2. I've studied the racial sciences which are also illogical, but guess what, it didn't matter. People still flocked to the idea of being superior to Jews/blacks and so on.

This is why the church for years fought against the idea that the earth orbited the sun. It makes earth equal to all other planets.
And it is the same reason the church will resist evolution. It places man as EQUALS with all over life.


This is our nature and the church has just capitalized on it!

[hazetwostep]

mrdevious...
i think you have a great point, just focused the wrong directions. it is not creationism (in my opinion) that simplifies evolution so much... it is the people who follow it without researching or exploring themselves, which way too many creationists do. this thread has so stretched my mind (as i often has the simplistic poof evolution thoughts) that it really has me thinking about the whole intelligent design arguement. i can't say that my opinion has changed, but you all have very much so opened my mind to different thoughts and possibilities. thanks... remember that it is not so much creationism but the ignorant who blindly follow it. you all have me thinkg! which is cool...

[Mosiah]

Im open minded towards everything, even the possibility (GASP!) that everything I believe is wrong. I really dont know if there's a higher power out there, but it's not impossible.