intelligent design > pure accident

[hazetwostep]

harris specifically but anyone is welcome to contribute,

understandable about not wanting to get into the disproving of a higher power as that is another never ending discussion.

without us getting into the actually discussion of it, could you at least give me an example of an argument or two with scientific evidence suggesting there is no existence of a higher power?

i have never heard one as this is a new question i have...it was stimulated from this pleasant and interesting discussion; leave it to the potheads to be able to have a completely civil athiest & agnostic & believer (in something) talk! imagine if the world leaders passed a piece pipe before meetings...

good times everyone...

hazetwostep Reviewed by hazetwostep on 12-20-2006. intelligent design > pure accident I just smoked with my buddy and we were discussing dark matter, multi-dimension theories, and other such things that are way beyond our scale of comprehension... we are both wondering how someone could see the complexity and intricacy of this universe (from clusters of galaxies down to atoms) and believe that there was not some sort of "higher intelligence" behind it, even if the "higher intelligence" simply aligned the big bang and just left us spinning since... this is NOT a Rating: 5

[braddog10]

I try not to argue for God's inexistence, I try to find the arguments for god's existence. Havenâ??t found any good ones yet and Iâ??ve looked long and hard

I admire your honesty Harris. God doesn't want us to throw our minds out the window. My experience is that The Lord is seeking those whose Hearts are toward him Not Minds. He doesn't want us to just settle for acknowledging His existence but to go further in relationship where you will relate with Him, and see His hand on your life. Please don't just settle for just proof. Not trying to be an evangelist here, But ask yourself this question. Are you willing to allow God to lay His hand upon you to bring you to a place where you will Know Him?

Get beyond your head here. There are some doors that we must open. We control the lock and key. I admire your search also Harris.
"Those who seek me shall find me. When they search for me with their whole heart".Jeremiah 29:13

Then I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me with their whole heart. Jeremiah 24:7

This is a work that he does. The door we open is one of willingness for His access.

Behold I stand at the door and knock. Any man who opens the door I will come in and sup with him and He with me. Jesus

[mrdevious]

could you at least give me an example of an argument or two with scientific evidence suggesting there is no existence of a higher power?

That's the problem with the "disproving" requirement, you cannot find "evidence" for that which does not exist, even against it. If evidence is to exist, it must have an existent entity on which it is formed for it to exist. The evidence for the lack of a god is in the lack thereof, the logical fallacies in people's assumptions toward god's existence. Everything can exist (including god) as every scientist and sensible atheist will inarguably acknowledge. But until resonable evidence is provided to justify such an entities existence, it has no more validity than invisible teacups orbiting the sun, microscopic space-jellyfish in another galaxy, or anything else one can conjure up in the imagination.
Intelligent design is just an easy answer to fill in the space where we don't have all the answers yet. To suggest that intelligence is required for the complexity of life and the universe is just a quick answer since we haven't yet established the all the mechanisms through which existence works. When thunder and lighting couldn't be explained, it must have been Zeus. When science explained the thunder and lightening, we went to the stars and said they must be pin-pricks in the sky looking into heaven (that was an actual ancient belief in Christian Europe). When we discovered the true nature of stars, we move on to things like the beginning of the universe, the next step we haven't figured out yet.

and the question still stands; seeing as that intelligence is the most complex example of organization of matter, how can we say there was an "intelligence" required in the beginning to organize the universe, and eventually the most complex thing we've found in it yet... intelligence. our complex bodies are amazingly soffisticated and therefor could not arise without an intelligent designer, yet the intelligence of this designer which is more complex than anything found here, can arise in and of itself without the same problem.

The universe, existence, and all the mechanisms found therein are incredibly complex and varried. Human consciousness and many other wonders are just the most complex examples arising out of billions (perhapse trillions, if considering the necessary conditions) of years of inevitable varriation and growth in the complexity of natural systems.

[harris7]

harris specifically but anyone is welcome to contribute,

understandable about not wanting to get into the disproving of a higher power as that is another never ending discussion.

without us getting into the actually discussion of it, could you at least give me an example of an argument or two with scientific evidence suggesting there is no existence of a higher power?

i have never heard one as this is a new question i have...it was stimulated from this pleasant and interesting discussion; leave it to the potheads to be able to have a completely civil atheist & agnostic & believer (in something) talk! imagine if the world leaders passed a piece pipe before meetings...

good times everyone...

Haze you've reversed the process, one needs to support their own claim.
"the burden of proof rests on the person making the claim"
ie. it is your job to prove it as you cannot disprove something that dosn't exist.

You haze cannot disprove my claim:
That i have a large invisible dragon in my bedroom.

Please disprove that... you cannot. (this measure dosn't prove truth)
But if you as me to prove it:
and i cannot (the only reason i cannot prove it is because it dosn't exist)

but to answer your question the "problem of evil is an argument against the idea of "God""

check that out on wikipedia if you like.

My position on the subject is that people start out non-believers, some change their views because of something. I argue that, that "something" that makes them change their views isn't valid. And that becoming a believer is wrong.

[harris7]

what in science or nature would suggest that this higher power does in fact NOT exist and is not behind evolution?

what would make this any less viable of a theory than the big bang or any other?

what would make the "theory" of a higher power less viable than the theory of evolution is the lack of supporting data a higher power has. There is little or no evidence that exclusively supports an intelligent being. IE. there is no evidence that cannot be explained by a more realistic theory.

Science judges it's theories by a few quantifiers, by how much data they explain, their ability to predict future information and how simple the explanation is (if we have two competing theories science will always favor the simples theory) . Evolution explains an extremely large amount of data. What is more impressive is that most of the information was discovered after the theory was thought up!

[Herbal]

I just smoked with my buddy and we were discussing dark matter, multi-dimension theories, and other such things that are way beyond our scale of comprehension...

we are both wondering how someone could see the complexity and intricacy of this universe (from clusters of galaxies down to atoms) and believe that there was not some sort of "higher intelligence" behind it, even if the "higher intelligence" simply aligned the big bang and just left us spinning since...

this is NOT a pro-creation stance but an intelligence behind the start of evolution question...

I have been studying Astronomy as a hobbie for years. I am currently working towards a BS in physics and plan on getting my MS.

From a mathimatical point of view, dark matter, other dimensions, teleportation, and other crazy "Trekie" terms do exist. (Voyager pwns)

Today, mankind is able to teleport a superatom half a meter (ez material: http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ ), store and retrieve binary bits on photons (Quantum computers, read more: http://www.cs.caltech.edu/~westside/quantum-intro.html )

Even though I have a very artistic and creative mind (Play violin) I like to base my logic on science. I believe in evolution. Even the finches Darwin studied have continued to evolve and will continue to.

Where did the big bang come from? The last big crunch. Do some reading.

Let me know if you got any questions about black holes, worm holes, white holes, and other thing. If you got questions about tachyon particles and what not, let me know. I will try to explain it clearly if I'm not to stoned.

[braddog10]

Haze you've reversed the process, one needs to support their own claim.
"the burden of proof rests on the person making the claim"
ie. it is your job to prove it as you cannot disprove something that dosn't exist.

You haze cannot disprove my claim:
That i have a large invisible dragon in my bedroom.

Please disprove that... you cannot. (this measure dosn't prove truth)
But if you as me to prove it:
and i cannot (the only reason i cannot prove it is because it dosn't exist)

but to answer your question the "problem of evil is an argument against the idea of "God""

check that out on wikipedia if you like.

My position on the subject is that people start out non-believers, some change their views because of something. I argue that, that "something" that makes them change their views isn't valid. And that becoming a believer is wrong.

I'm asking God to open your eyes to see something. There is something prophetic here. I know it sounds very strange. bear with me here. Your paradigm will radically change.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and Lean not to your own Understanding Proverbs 3:5

[mrdevious]

I'm asking God to open your eyes to see something. There is something prophetic here. I know it sounds very strange. bear with me here. Your paradigm will radically change.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and Lean not to your own Understanding Proverbs 3:5

"lean not to your own understanding"?

I preferre the Buddha's "Believe nothing, no matter where you hear it, no matter who has said it, even if I have said it, unless it makes sense to your own logic and common sense".

Telling an atheist he/she will find god through intellectual submission to an unproven entity is not going to convince him/her. When people say "submit to gods will and you will find him", and outsider such as myself views this as "submit to the belief until the part of your mind that question's it goes silent".

My personal belief is that true salvation lies in humanities understanding of the universe and its workings. When we understand everything in existence and how to control it, we will then have control over our own existence parallel to that of the illusionary god we worship.

If any of you wish to believe in god, I'm certainly not going to convince you otherwise. But I would ask that you at least hold philisophical belief over doctrine. Philisophical belief is open to intellectual interpretation, discussion, exploration, and change. Doctrine chisseles a belief in stone and has been responsible for thousands of years of oppression, particularily of those seeking to make progress at the expense of the doctrine of dominant powers (that includes religious, political, and otherwise). Believe what you think is right, but don't supress all else to others or yourself. Everything, including our knowledge, is ultimately impermanent.

[braddog10]

"lean not to your own understanding"?

I preferre the Buddha's "Believe nothing, no matter where you hear it, no matter who has said it, even if I have said it, unless it makes sense to your own logic and common sense".

Telling an atheist he/she will find god through intellectual submission to an unproven entity is not going to convince him/her. When people say "submit to gods will and you will find him", and outsider such as myself views this as "submit to the belief until the part of your mind that question's it goes silent".

My personal belief is that true salvation lies in humanities understanding of the universe and its workings. When we understand everything in existence and how to control it, we will then have control over our own existence parallel to that of the illusionary god we worship.

If any of you wish to believe in god, I'm certainly not going to convince you otherwise. But I would ask that you at least hold philisophical belief over doctrine. Philisophical belief is open to intellectual interpretation, discussion, exploration, and change. Doctrine chisseles a belief in stone and has been responsible for thousands of years of oppression, particularily of those seeking to make progress at the expense of the doctrine of dominant powers (that includes religious, political, and otherwise). Believe what you think is right, but don't supress all else to others or yourself. Everything, including our knowledge, is ultimately impermanent.

This is a spiritual Board Mr. D. What your describing is a psychology board or forum. The ancient word psyche is the very word translated soul. Psychology is the study of the intellect emotions and will. The Word of God exhorts to learn to discern the Soul (psyche) from the spiritual. They are radically different. Many of you here do not understand this at all. Busy arguing with your minds, the Spiritual passes you by. Full of mysteries.

It's like 2 dimensional world telling others what 3 dimensional world looks like. Pretty ridiculous.

[mrdevious]

I've yet to see actual evidence that the spiritual aspect of ourselves is separate from our mental processes. In fact I get the feeling that it's entirely based on assumption to comfort those who need something to be mysterious and unexplainable to have validity.