Holland's Deadly Tolerance

[Torog]

Holland's Deadly Tolerance
The Weekly Standard ^ | November 22, 2004 issue | Christopher Caldwee


THE AFTERNOON of Election Day in Washington, one of the Dutch journalists in town to cover the vote mentioned to me that there had been a spectacular killing in Amsterdam that morning, which would be international news as soon as the dust cleared from the Bush-Kerry contest. True enough. Most of the world now knows that a Muslim assailant intercepted the controversialist filmmaker Theo van Gogh as he rode his bike through Amsterdam, and shot him several times. As van Gogh pled for his life, the murderer slit his throat. He then used the corpse as a sort of human bulletin board, pinning a letter to the torso with a dagger.

What was curious was the journalist's explanation of why the ordinarily open and liberal Dutch government had not released the contents of that letter. He speculated that it contained radical Islamic pronouncements and further threats against politicians, and that the reaction of the public to it would be violent. The letter, published early this week, did indeed contain death threats against two members of parliament: Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somalian-born immigrant who has repudiated Islam and blames it for violence against women; and Geert Wilders, a longtime liberal politician who has turned to anti-Muslim demagoguery and heads an embryonic populist movement. Both are now in hiding.

Both rose to prominence in the wake of the killing in 2002 of Pim Fortuyn, the charismatic gay politician who won a massive overnight following by warning that high Muslim immigration was overburdening the country's institutions and threatening its ethos of easy come, easy go. It took him only weeks to turn his new party into the country's second largest, but he was soon shot dead by a deranged environmentalist. It was the first political killing in Holland since the sixteenth century.

Van Gogh, on the other hand, had been a loud--one could even say obnoxious--critic of Islam. He had referred to Muslims as "goatf--ers" and, with Hirsi Ali, had made a 10-minute agitprop film that mixed pornography, violence, and Muslim prayer. But even if the van Gogh killing was different in its particulars, it looked to certain Dutch observers like a second salvo in a revolution. The past 10 days have seen almost continuous protest. At least a dozen mosques and Muslim schools were set on fire. The subsequent firebombing of several churches fanned the fury. There were raids across the country on Moroccan, Kurdish, and Pakistani terrorist cells. At one pre-dawn arrest of two suspects in the Hague, police were met with a grenade attack, and a siege that lasted 15 hours, while the cornered suspects hollered, "We will behead you!" There were dozens of arrests. Most of the suspects were Arab immigrants. But, quite disturbingly, some, like Mohammed Bouyeri, van Gogh's alleged killer, were Dutch-born Dutch citizens. Two of those arrested--known only as Jason W. and Jermaine W.--were Dutch-American converts to Islam.

After decades of trying to fight social problems with ever more tolerance, the Dutch are at a loss before terrorism. Queen Beatrix limited her involvement to visiting immigrant kids at a Moroccan "youth center." This was hardly what public opinion was clamoring for. At this point, the Dutch seem more inclined to move from Live and Let Live to its opposite, and are calling for laws that make the Patriot Act look like Kumbayah. Strict laws against government surveillance over religious establishments, a centuries-old inheritance from the United Provinces' battle against Spanish occupation, appear set to go by the boards. On Friday, the Dutch parliament requested a new law that would forbid mosques to employ imams who had been educated elsewhere. One member of parliament was quoted in a wire report as saying: "It's better to have 10 possibly innocent people temporarily in jail than one with a bomb on the street."

Complicating matters further is the big story from neighboring Belgium, where authorities last week banned the Vlaams Blok, the most popular party in the Flemish (Dutch-speaking) part of the country. In recent years, the party has argued with increasing stridency for dissolving Belgium and building links with the Netherlands. There are not that many Dutch-speakers in the world. The unhappy result is that stories about Holland's immigrant menace and the Belgian government's banning of one of Europe's most popular right-wing parties have been mixed together in the same media pressure cooker.

There was naturally a lot of solipsistic hand-wringing in the Dutch press, warning the country against reacting like the United States or Israel, since "violence only begets violence." But for a change, that was not the only response.

Alternatives to rightism and pacifism are not lacking. The most hopeful sign of the week may have been the U.S. visit of the pro-American NATO chief Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, who as Dutch foreign minister was one of the architects of the Netherlands' pragmatic engagement in the Iraq coalition. De Hoop Scheffer met President Bush on Wednesday; the following day, in an interview in New York, he warned that there is a gap between the United States and Europe in their perceptions of the terrorist threat. "If the gap is to be bridged," he added, "it has to be done from the European side." Events, alas, are seeing to that.

Torog Reviewed by Torog on 11-13-2004. Holland's Deadly Tolerance Holland's Deadly Tolerance The Weekly Standard ^ | November 22, 2004 issue | Christopher Caldwee THE AFTERNOON of Election Day in Washington, one of the Dutch journalists in town to cover the vote mentioned to me that there had been a spectacular killing in Amsterdam that morning, which would be international news as soon as the dust cleared from the Bush-Kerry contest. True enough. Most of the world now knows that a Muslim assailant intercepted the controversialist filmmaker Theo van Rating: 5

[Torog]

Daggum,it seems the Dutch are finding out the hard way-what we've been trying to tell em about muslim jihadists..appeasement won't work.

Does anyone know where the Cannabis Cup '04 is being held ? Is it Amsterdam ? Do ya reckon,that this situation will have an influence on the Canna' Cup event ?

[Herbaholic00]

Yeah the cannabis cup '04 is in Amsterdam, its around this time of the year i think

In my opinion I doubt the events will have an influence on it going ahead, there is to much money to be made. To be a judge in the main cup tourists have to pay (alot of money) to first become a judge which gives them a card to score the weed on and a badge to say they r a judge. Then I think they get a map with all the coffee shops on where they have to go and pay again for all the weed (you dont get much for the ammount you pay to be a judge in the first place). A friend of mine was in Amsterdam a couple of years ago while the cup was on and every where was rammed full of people.

I've read in a few magazines how the cup has been totally commercialized in the last few years.
But yeah........that is my opinion on why the cup will still go ahead regardless.

Peace

[Return of the redi]

Yeh, the old jihadists have finally gone too far. It's about time someone put them in their place and drove them out of a country for a change. Let em know how it feels to be hated.
Tolerance has gotten us knowhere. We've had our kindness taken for granted, and our patience abused. I say ban them all from practising their religion in public. A bit like what France have done, only take it further to include all public places. It just causes resentment, and anything else that caused that much offence would be banned.

[Euphoric]

Yeh, the old jihadists have finally gone too far. It's about time someone put them in their place and drove them out of a country for a change. Let em know how it feels to be hated.
Tolerance has gotten us knowhere. We've had our kindness taken for granted, and our patience abused. I say ban them all from practising their religion in public. A bit like what France have done, only take it further to include all public places. It just causes resentment, and anything else that caused that much offence would be banned.

violence begets violence. cause and effect my friend...
there is always an alternative...also, i think you'd feel differently if you had more to lose. it's easy to push the big red button when you'll suffer little for it. dont hate..or at least try not to.

[Libertarian Toker]

Freedom! Think about it some. If you do the same things the muslims are doing, then your no better then they are. Freedom is not just for some, it should be for all. One man gets killed, and suddenly all muslims are bad? Wait a minute, they have been killing people by the thousands for years and years, and now, just like that, they are all bad because of one killing? All along I thought it was supposed to be Liberal country's that cared so much for the world. Here we find out they really only care for themselves. It was OK to protest the war on terror right up untill terror happened to them, now it's war. They are lucky there are still people around to help them. Personaly, I don't think Freedom should be restricted to protect Freedom from being restricted. Something about that kind of logic is just not right.

Toker

[Return of the redi]

"If you do the same things the muslims are doing, then your no better then they are."

OK, point taken.

BUT, if we DON'T do what the Muslims are doing, we may not have a way of life or a democracy left to protect.

Do you accept that?

Or do you suggest we carry on shutting our eyes, and slurring those who object as racists?

The Muslim preachers bear much of the blame for radicalizing Muslims and goading them into 'holy war'.




"Why Theo Van Gogh Was Murdered
The filmmaker focused on the shameful abuse of Muslim women by Muslim men in Europe. | 15 November 2004


The slaughter of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh on the streets of Amsterdam, in broad daylight, by a young man of Moroccan origin bent on jihad, has at last dented Dutch confidence that unconditional tolerance can be on its own the unifying principle of a viable society. For tolerance to work, it must be reciprocal; tolerance appears to the intolerant jihadist mere weakness and lack of belief in anything. Unilateral tolerance in a world of intolerance is like unilateral disarmament in a world of armed camps: it regards hope as a better basis for policy than reality.

Like most people in Western democracies, Van Gogh, by all accounts a brash and combative man, took his freedom of expression for granted. Most of us most of the time do not reflect much on the fact that such freedom is an historical exception rather than an historical rule, a reversible achievement rather than a free gift of God. There are still many who would rather kill than brook any contradiction of their opinions or beliefs, even while they live in the most tolerant of societies.

But why kill Theo Van Gogh, of all the people who have expressed hostility to radical Islam? Perhaps it was mere chance, but more likely it resulted from his workâ??s exposure of a very raw nerve of Muslim identity in Western Europe: the abuse of women. This abuse is now essential for people of Muslim descent for maintaining any sense of separate cultural identity in the homogenizing solution of modern mass society.

In fact, Islam is as vulnerable in Europe to the forces of secularization as Christianity has proved to be. The majority of Muslims in Europe, particularly the young, have a weak and tenuous connection to their ancestral religion. Their level and intensity of belief is low; pop music interests them more. Far from being fanatics, they are lukewarm believers at best. Were it not for the abuse of women, Islam would go the way of the Church of England.

The abuse of women has often, if not always, appealed to men, because it gives them a sense of power, however humiliated they may feel in other spheres of their life. And the oppression of women by Muslim men in Western Europe gives those men at the same time a sexual partner, a domestic servant, and a gratifying sense of power, while allowing them also to live an otherwise westernized life. For the men, it is convenient; interestingly, but perhaps not surprisingly, almost the only openly hostile expressions toward Islam from British-born Muslims that I hear come from young women, some of whom loathe it passionately because they blame it for their servitude.

Religious sanction for the oppression of women (whether theologically justified or not) is hence the main attraction of Islam to young men in an increasingly secular world. This explains why a divide often opens between brothers and sisters in the same European Muslim family; the sisters want liberty, but the brothers enforce the old rules. They have to, or the whole gratifying system breaks down.

This, I suspect, is the source of the rage against Theo Van Gogh."

[rufusthestuntbum]

[QUOTE=Libertarian Toker]Freedom! Think about it some. If you do the same things the muslims are doing, then your no better then they are. Freedom is not just for some, it should be for all.


Freedom being a macdonalds and wendys. American freedom. So actually freedom means greed and fat people. Americans are the last people to be lecturing anyone on freedom, much less the dutch.


One man gets killed, and suddenly all muslims are bad? Wait a minute, they have been killing people by the thousands for years and years, and now, just like that, they are all bad because of one killing?


If by "they" you mean muslims they havenet killed nearly the number jesus fiends have.



All along I thought it was supposed to be Liberal country's that cared so much for the world. Here we find out they really only care for themselves.

Who care about americans? You hate the rest of the world. You hate the UN, why would anyone in europe care about america? No such thing as a liberal country, there are right wing and left wing parties in all the euro nations.



It was OK to protest the war on terror right up untill terror happened to them, now it's war.

War on iraq isnt the war on terror. You can keep repeating it, but it will never be true, sorry stupid american.


They are lucky there are still people around to help them. Personaly, I don't think Freedom should be restricted to protect Freedom from being restricted. Something about that kind of logic is just not right.


Spying on terrorists isnt restricting freedom

[Libertarian Toker]

"BUT, if we DON'T do what the Muslims are doing, we may not have a way of life or a democracy left to protect."

If you take away Freedom of religon, and Freedom of speech, then what do you have left to protect? What good is democracy if you can't speak out? Your worried they may take your Freedom, and your answer to that is to take their Freedom. Freedom should not be for just some of the people, it should be for all. Punishing everyone for the actions of a few is a fucked thing to get in the habit of doing. In germany a religion was claimed evil the same as is being done now with muslims. By the time that mess was over what had happened was, well, disgusting. While some of the things said about muslims may be true, I still think punishing a whole group for the actions of an individual, or even a few peoples actions, is wrong.

"Or do you suggest we carry on shutting our eyes, and slurring those who object as racists?"

I suggest that we not screw with Freedom, and try to find a way to live together. It's not an easy thing to do, and it's been tried a lot and failed a lot. Does that mean we will never get along? If so, maybe we should just nuke them all out of existence now and be done with it once and for all. Islam is my least favorite religon, but I could no more oppress them as a group then I could christians or satanists. My group may be next on the list, and I don't want to be oppressed like that.

"The Muslim preachers bear much of the blame for radicalizing Muslims and goading them into 'holy war'"

True enough!

Toker

[Libertarian Toker]

"Freedom being a macdonalds and wendys. American freedom. So actually freedom means greed and fat people. Americans are the last people to be lecturing anyone on freedom, much less the dutch."

Is that all you got? Lame anti-American insults only make you look like a fool. If your going to do it, at least try to do a good job of it. You can't make me look stupid if you busy making yourself look stupid.

"If by "they" you mean muslims they havenet killed nearly the number jesus fiends have."

I'm an atheist. Your attack on Jesus fiends means nothing to me.

Who care about Americans?

It would seem you do.

"You hate the rest of the world."

Do I? And what would make you think "I" hate the rest of the world?

"You hate the UN"

You got me on that one, I do hate the UN and wish the US would pull out of it.

"why would anyone in Europe care about America?"

Well because we are so much better then you are of course! We control your economy, your safety, your military, and most of your thoughts. Take you for example, you cared enough to think about US just by making this post. I find that same type of stupidity coming from a lot of liberal Europeans, and some Canadians too. Like you, they claim we hate when really they are the ones doing the hating.

"No such thing as a liberal country, there are right wing and left wing parties in all the euro nations."

No such thing? Really? So France is not a liberal country? Well, are they leftys or rightys? Oh yeah, a little of both. Yet their policy by most definitions are liberal. Wouldn't that make them a liberal country? If all of Europes countrys are neutral, would that mean the US is also?

"War on iraq isnt the war on terror. You can keep repeating it, but it will never be true, sorry stupid American."

Let's see, what was it that I said? Oh yeah I said;

"It was OK to protest the war on terror right up until terror happened to them, now it's war."

Where exactly do you get Iraq from in that? Are you really as programmed as you seem to be? I guess if your what smart is, I'll just stick with being a stupid American.

"Spying on terrorists isnt restricting freedom"

Arresting them, or kicking them out of the country for what they say is restricting their Freedom.

Toker