Quote Originally Posted by Hamlet
Ya hit on something there that the fire n' brimstone 'zoids don't ever think about, or at least don't like to think about. If a perfect God started a project called 'Earth and Man' to keep him busy, why would it be all fucked up? Couldn't a god set up his hobby to where it ran a whole lot smoother than having to judge and burn a few billion souls?

If he gave man 'free will' why would he make that will anything less than perfect? If there was and is a god, somewhere along the lines, there's no getting around the fact that ultimately, He's responsible for all the evil as well as all the good.

Life feeds on life, therefore all life is a struggle for domination and power. We didn't set it up that way, so if there is a god, he's the one responsible for the order of things and its consequences. Every creepy,crawly thing down here is just doing the best it can to get by and survive. Loftier virtues are a luxury of those who've reached a level of dominance and are not so pressured by the struggle. Throw that 'free will' in a more deperate situation and all those virtues will go right out the window.
Sure, the Bible states that God did create Evil, so what does this mean? (Evil is a relative term) It's not about punishment; it's about learning how to live, and find satisfaction in life. Life doesn't have to be about domination and power, Hamlet; we choose to make it such. (Theres that free will again) We [mankind] are the dominant, therefor will have been given an opportunity to embrace virtue or vice. We will all stumble a bit when free will presents a 'more desparate situation', particularly in the world we live in now. But, virtue does not have to go out the window. If you embrace her, she will keep your path. Czech out Proverbs...

Emotions such as greed and fear are no more than just survival mechanisms just like all the warm n' fuzzy ones we think of as virtues. We're stuck here in a mechanism of Cause and Effect--a cosmic watch ticking away and doing it's own thing. 'Judging' how it operates and the behavior of the pieces of protoplasm caught in the mechanism is as absurd as a child passing moral judgements on ants in an antfarm.
We don't judge the pieces of protoplasm, we discern the mechnism, and decide for ourselves the right path. Greed, and fear are all emotions each person has experienced, yet do they satisfy? One would think money would satisfy, or more abundance of the material, but it doesn't. Why? Because satisfaction can only be found within the self by way of virtue; material wealth is just the cherry.

Love, or what you call a 'warm fuzzy' virtue is more than that, it is Life in a Spirit, and our source of satisfaction within the mechanism. We choose virtue or vice; it's that simple. I wonder why Jesus said it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to find the kingdom of heaven? I think it is because of vice. Even so, Faith can move mountains, one only need be mindful of what he/she embraces, and on what course he/she sets his heart.

I don't know if the world will ever change, Hamlet, and it doesn't matter. We choose our destiny, we choose our paths, and in the end, we choose virtue or vice, heaven or hell, life or death, satisfation or discontent, the Spiritual or carnal...It's all in the heart of Man.

The source of "virtue", "heaven", "Life", "Satisfaction", and "Spirit" is Love...

Can a person attain these things w/o belief in a God, or Jesus? My answer is yes! If one does not believe in God, then the ultimatum is infact a choice, as there would be nothing other than creation/Life itself providing such a thing.

Ultimatum or Choice...you decide, as it doesn't change the reality of the situation we've found ourselves in.


Much Love,