Hardest "Christian" thing to do?

[Oneironaut]

don't wear two clothes of the same fabric

Sorry, I'm stoned. That was supposed to be a reference to Leviticus 19:19, the divine commandment against wearing clothing woven of two different fabrics. It's after the deep, insightful part where it says to not fuck your sister.

[JunkYard]

Sorry, I'm stoned. That was supposed to be a reference to Leviticus 19:19, the divine commandment against wearing clothing woven of two different fabrics. It's after the deep, insightful part where it says to not fuck your sister.

LMAO!

yup, that's would be insightful, hahahaha!

[Oneironaut]

Try Proverbs, or Psalms, or 'some' of John, 1 John, 2 John, theres alot of good stuff if you look, man but you won't find it w/o a willing attitude, sorry.

I've read a lot of that stuff. God is great, yay for God, help us Lord, we're evil sinners, but we try to be good...yaaaaaawn... Don't tell me I haven't looked for something good in here. I keep reading and reading and it's just so boring and uninspiring. There's no plot structure, the characters are all so one-dimensional, and it repeats itself over and over again. Besides that, so much of it is really really hard to derive any actual meaning from. Even expert theologians can't figure out what this stuff is supposed to mean, because they're all interpreting it in their own way due to extremely vague wording.

If you choose to believe that....btw, he never interferes with 'choice' it was man's choice to portray God in that manner.

How do you know he doesn't interfere with choice? I myself find the idea of an all-powerful all-knowing being to be logically incompatible with the idea of free will, but that's a whole nother can of worms I don't want to get into right now.

I don't need him to prove himself, but I guess others are different. Like I said, I don't think it matters if you 'believe', or not. It's your 'choice'.

I can't help it, but my brain operates according to the rules of logic. I can't get it to accept an idea for which there is no evidence. It just won't fit in there. It's like trying to convince myself that unicorns exist. I'd have to actually see real evidence of a unicorn for my brain to accept that idea. Unicorns are things that should be very hard to miss.

As far as I'm concerned, there cannot logically be a God who does not interfere with our universe somehow. Anything that does not have a measurable effect on our universe is by definition non-existent. If God doesn't interfere with our lives, doesn't change things in our universe, then it is impossible to get any information on him and he cannot be said to exist in any meaningful sense of the term.

On the other hand, if he does interfere with our lives, there should be some objective evidence for that. His influence should be demonstrable somehow, and obvious to us. We are lacking in such evidence. I don't see why a God who supposedly loves us would keep himself so hidden.

I exist, I see a beautiful creation, I see life, birth, death everyday. Why would I need anything more?

Exactly. Isn't that enough? Why delude yourself with fictitious supernatural sky wizards? Life is beautiful; appreciate it for what it is: the magnificent product of Darwinian natural selection over billions of years, with no driven purpose in mind, a mosaic of the natural laws of our universe working in an inconceivably complex fashion. Physics, chemistry, biology and astronomy are all far more inspiring than the Bible. Give me Hawking, Dawkins or Sagan over Jesus anyday.

Yup, man twisted it up pretty good, huh?

I didn't twist it up, I opened up my Bible and that's the kind of stuff I read in it.

I respect all who value these things. I believe the Church had an agenda when pushing the whole fire and brimstone issue...

Actually, the fire and brimstone bit has been around since the earliest Christian writings. In fact, the Apocalypse of Peter (not the Gnostic text of the same name) was removed from the Biblical canon before the Council of Nicea established the modern Bible as we know it. Why? Because it was too gruesome in its depiction of what happens to sinners in Hell (it also described the pleasures of Heaven). In the early days of Christianity it had just as much validity as the other New Testament books we know today; it just seems the early Christians didn't like it too much and decided to do away with it.

I agree, the Bible in the hands of the fearful and true believers can be a dagerous thing.

What other book can you say that about? Mein Kampf maybe? Any book that says "This is how you should live your life, because this great powerful being says so" is dangerous when it becomes popularized, because it will get into the hands of people who take it too far. That's the problem with bowing down to higher powers, be they heavenly or earthly; people will always fight in the name of their chosen higher power against other higher powers.

Because it will be 'his' message that helps change the world...The Bible is going nowhere, man. People want to believe in Jesus. People need to believe in Jesus, and his words truly inspire. So does Ghandi, the teachings of Buddha and others of the like mind...

What's so inspiring about it? It's such a bland, nonsensical message. A few basic moral rules everybody pretty much already agrees to, a couple superstitious claims about the supernatural, and a whole bunch of vague parables whose meanings theologians can't exactly agree on. Give me Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, Emma Goldman, Mark Twain, Ralph Waldo Emerson or Henry David Thoreau, someone who writes clearly with powerful arguments and impeccable logic, who can inspire you with the real world, not the imaginative superstitions of times past. Give me someone who writes a scathing social critique, crying for justice in the face of tyranny, condemning the evils of the day, instead of telling everybody to turn the other cheek and hope for better times in an afterlife that will never come.

[JunkYard]

I've read a lot of that stuff. God is great, yay for God, help us Lord, we're evil sinners, but we try to be good...yaaaaaawn... Don't tell me I haven't looked for something good in here. I keep reading and reading and it's just so boring and uninspiring. There's no plot structure, the characters are all so one-dimensional, and it repeats itself over and over again. Besides that, so much of it is really really hard to derive any actual meaning from. Even expert theologians can't figure out what this stuff is supposed to mean, because they're all interpreting it in their own way due to extremely vague wording.

If you're not finding any meaning, then maybe it's simply not for you, man. But there some of us who find it inspiring, and meaningful, and who derive a great sense of fullfilment from it. If you don't like it, don't read it. Its not the end all 'save' all answer to every life problem. It just helps some people, and for others it merely increases their "fear", bitterness, anger, etc...depends on how it is recieved..

You don't get any pleasure from it, so why read it at all?

Is there a reason?

I personaly like it, I like Jesus, I believe in a God, and it works for me, and no harm done, right?

How do you know he doesn't interfere with choice? I myself find the idea of an all-powerful all-knowing being to be logically incompatible with the idea of free will, but that's a whole nother can of worms I don't want to get into right now.

My idea of God is that he is simply the creative, and destructive force of the universe, as well as the universal consciouness. Apparently you have other views of what 'you' think God 'should' be. I'm sorry if he doesn't live up tou your expectations, man. That's a choice too, btw.

I can't help it, but my brain operates according to the rules of logic. I can't get it to accept an idea for which there is no evidence. It just won't fit in there. It's like trying to convince myself that unicorns exist. I'd have to actually see real evidence of a unicorn for my brain to accept that idea. Unicorns are things that should be very hard to miss.

Fair enough...

As far as I'm concerned, there cannot logically be a God who does not interfere with our universe somehow. Anything that does not have a measurable effect on our universe is by definition non-existent. If God doesn't interfere with our lives, doesn't change things in our universe, then it is impossible to get any information on him and he cannot be said to exist in any meaningful sense of the term.

See My idea of God above... Doesn't make it true, but it is what I personally believe. You see it differently, so what? It doesn't matter in the least as far as I'm concerned

On the other hand, if he does interfere with our lives, there should be some objective evidence for that. His influence should be demonstrable somehow, and obvious to us. We are lacking in such evidence. I don't see why a God who supposedly loves us would keep himself so hidden.

Maybe because he wants us to find him on our own, in our own time. It makes it much more satisfying, I would think.

Exactly. Isn't that enough? Why delude yourself with fictitious supernatural sky wizards? Life is beautiful; appreciate it for what it is: the magnificent product of Darwinian natural selection over billions of years, with no driven purpose in mind, a mosaic of the natural laws of our universe working in an inconceivably complex fashion. Physics, chemistry, biology and astronomy are all far more inspiring than the Bible. Give me Hawking, Dawkins or Sagan over Jesus anyday.

Why worry about what "I" believe, man? I harm no one, I don't discriminate, I don't attempt to convert, and I don't tell you you're going to burn in hell for doubting God. I believe, and that sir is my business. The why isn't important...

I didn't twist it up, I opened up my Bible and that's the kind of stuff I read in it.

I've been talking about how man created the Bible, as opposed to God. I never said "you" I said man, I'm not trying to be an ass with you, bro. I'm simply stating my views, cool?

Actually, the fire and brimstone bit has been around since the earliest Christian writings. In fact, the Apocalypse of Peter (not the Gnostic text of the same name) was removed from the Biblical canon before the Council of Nicea established the modern Bible as we know it. Why? Because it was too gruesome in its depiction of what happens to sinners in Hell (it also described the pleasures of Heaven). In the early days of Christianity it had just as much validity as the other New Testament books we know today; it just seems the early Christians didn't like it too much and decided to do away with it.

Exactly... The Church pushed that dogma...I guess the others were much like me, and rejected it flat, lol! Then again, hell could be a darkened heart where the fires of bitterness, hate, anger, and fear breed.

Think about it...

What other book can you say that about? Mein Kampf maybe? Any book that says "This is how you should live your life, because this great powerful being says so" is dangerous when it becomes popularized, because it will get into the hands of people who take it too far. That's the problem with bowing down to higher powers, be they heavenly or earthly; people will always fight in the name of their chosen higher power against other higher powers.

Thats exactly why it is important to judge by that spirit I mentioned, man. People get too worked up over religion. God is not religion...God is life and Love. The Bible can be useful, and it can be dangerous. It depends on the way it is recieved, and the heart that recieves it.

See: Matthew 13:3-9

What's so inspiring about it? It's such a bland, nonsensical message. A few basic moral rules everybody pretty much already agrees to, a couple superstitious claims about the supernatural, and a whole bunch of vague parables whose meanings theologians can't exactly agree on. Give me Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, Emma Goldman, Mark Twain, Ralph Waldo Emerson or Henry David Thoreau, someone who writes clearly with powerful arguments and impeccable logic, who can inspire you with the real world, not the imaginative superstitions of times past. Give me someone who writes a scathing social critique, crying for justice in the face of tyranny, condemning the evils of the day, instead of telling everybody to turn the other cheek and hope for better times in an afterlife that will never come.

So don't read it, man. If you don't like it, don't read it... It's really that simple.


Learning to Love your neighbor, and enemies, and learning to love life is what salvation is about, imo. Maybe heaven and hell are simple states of mind?

I think it all happens in this life man, because death is certain to come. But these are just my opinions, bro.

Feel free to disagree....


Much Love,


:smokin:

[slipknotpsycho]

What is the number one teaching of Christianity that is the hardest for youto follow? I believe heavily in the teachings of Christ, but like every other human being in the world I "walk the line" like a drunk with a blindfold on. Atheists and agnostics please post your opinions, too; what do you think is the most demanding and spritually testing? Do you think the world would be a better place if more people followed it, or about the same?

For me, personally: Love thy enemy.

believing there is a magical 'man' watching everythign i do, and will judge me by my actions when i die... not really 'hard to follow' so much as 'hard to believe' but that's where faith starts right? believing.... so yeah, i have to chose that... i don't believe in god... honestly, if everyone followed the word of 'god' of course the world would be a better place, the guidlines given 'by him' are some very good guidlines for living life... i just don't believe there is a god that will judge me if i dont' follow them..

[Polymirize]

Oneironaut, I've come to accept that you have a hard-on for anti-religious arguments, but could you please stop pretending that you have any sort of logical superiority in your arguments?
You border on fundamentalism in your approach, and closemindedly refuse to acknowledge your belief in your own metaphysical assumptions, namely that there is no god. I think Junkyard hit the nail on the head when he asked you if you're an all or nothing kinda guy.
I think its an incredible insult to the very concept of god that you think he could be accurately contained within the pages of (as you've said) a rather badly written text. Which only goes to show that you've missed the point entirely. Human beings don't define God, god is by his nature undefinable, so all definitions are false. The fundamentalist worships false idols.
That's my interpretation. I don't pretend to speak for any religious view because I don't really have one, but I'm open to various possibilities.

As for the original post
Exodus 22:18. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live

I actually just ignore this passage entirely...

[psychocat]

The Bible is a believe it or not kinda thing and thats the problem with the religious nuts among us, how can it be right in parts and wrong in others.
Man wrote it is a poor excuse since it is supposedly the WORD of god ?
You either believe it to be true or not.
If any God botherers want to clear up what is to be accepted and what is to be ignored then maybe people would have a clearer idea .
IMO the bible and the stories of Jesus are about as believable as the tales of Robin Hood or even Aessops Fables.

[JunkYard]

The Bible is a believe it or not kinda thing and thats the problem with the religious nuts among us, how can it be right in parts and wrong in others.
Man wrote it is a poor excuse since it is supposedly the WORD of god ?
You either believe it to be true or not.
If any God botherers want to clear up what is to be accepted and what is to be ignored then maybe people would have a clearer idea .
IMO the bible and the stories of Jesus are about as believable as the tales of Robin Hood or even Aessops Fables.

The problem with the all or nothing attitude is it can lead you to very dark things. Look at our Christian history, and this is quite evident. As for telling someone what to believe and what not to believe. It's not possible; people will always believe what they choose, and no amount of effort to try to change those beliefs will make a difference. You are your own man, and you are 'free' to embrace anything you want...

But, if you truly want help knowing what choices you could make that might be of benefit, and what choices not to make when entering the realm of the Bible, I will point to something that might help. This will depend on what you value, though, so...

btw, I'll not try to change your mind. You asked, so I'm giving my answer...

1 John 4:6-8

6. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7. Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Anything that goes against Love is in the spitit of error, imo. You don't have to believe in God to Love, either. You only need to value it...


Much Love

[BLaQLiGhT]

Loving your enemies is pretty easy for me, I just don't like the things people do . Yes, I am a christian if you couldn't tell from my answer. I think this way because I believe as long as one is alive, we have a chance at changing our lifes and doing the right thing by accepting God and Jesus christ as the only true god and also believing that he died for all of us. The hard thing for everyone, Christian and Non-Christian, would be LUST. We lust for earthly things because we can see them and touch them, which makes it really hard to stop touching and looking at whatever we are lusting after. But God gives us a choice which makes us different from every other creation that god has made. I'm sure everyone can attest to that when they do something wrong, it was because they wanted to or they believed they had to. But it's all your choice after you reach that age knowing what is right and wrong. I know when I make the right choice, I feel good that I had the choice to do the right thing and that I did it willingly. LUST is inevitable because we were born with it because of Adam and Eve but we can try to stop and ask for forgiveness even though we will most likely fall into lust. You guys and gals know how it is , it's hard...

[BLaQLiGhT]

The Bible is a believe it or not kinda thing and thats the problem with the religious nuts among us, how can it be right in parts and wrong in others.
Man wrote it is a poor excuse since it is supposedly the WORD of god ?
You either believe it to be true or not.
If any God botherers want to clear up what is to be accepted and what is to be ignored then maybe people would have a clearer idea .
IMO the bible and the stories of Jesus are about as believable as the tales of Robin Hood or even Aessops Fables.

All you need to know is that God send his son to die for our sins . In all the many bibles there aer in the world, they all have the history of Jesus Christ and his miracles, and also his crucifixion. The bible has been translated many tmies over but this history in fact stays the same. That crucifixion was God's sacrifice to Man showing how much he loved us. He gaev us another connection with him because we lose the first one with Adam and Eve. Truly believe that Jesus died for your sins and you can then be connected with God again in spirit and have everlasting life with our creator :thumbsup: . It's all up to you, he gave you a choice which you can give your own answer and say no to. Good luck on your decision :thumbsup: . GOD BLESS THE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING IN IT AND ANY OTHER CREATION OF GOD !!!