To the science majors/scientists/science geeks out there...

[iwantFUEGO]

I assume that's aimed at me, so I'll try to use small words for you, light from distant stars has nothing to do with the big bang, except to show that the universe must be old enough to allow it to travel to us. On the other hand the universe shows very uniform background x-ray radiation, no matter where you point a radio telescope. Where do you suggest this radiation comes from, if not from the big bang? As for the second question, it appears likely there was life on mars, back when it had an atmosphere. Have you not at some point in your biology education learned life, at least as we understand it, requires liquid water? And that complex, multicellular life requires oxygen? Your argument is often called the "strong anthropomorphic principal" (sorry, big words, but unavoidable). That is to say that because we see a universe in which we can exist, it must therefore have been created for our benefit. The counter argument is simply that we should not be surpized to see around us conditions which allow our existence, to the contrary, it would be very odd indeed should we see otherwise.

You have a decent argument... only once again, skipped way past the point. You are claiming that we shouldnt be surprised that we live on earth because earth contains water and air and all the things necessary to provide life.
thats fine and dandy.
What everyone here is ranting about is the fact that the biochemical aspects of life... did it or did it not spontaneous evolve without help from a designer? People are claiming that the earth has been around for billions of years... that is a LONG time they claimed, long enough for carbon based beings to evolve into water dependant creatures....

what I am saying, however, is that Mars has been around for billions of years also. Why has (just an example) a nitrogen-based organism that is dependant on sulfur evolved there?

Trying reading more
And please spare me the simple words... thanks :thumbsup:

"You know what I hate? When people try to join conversations, as opposed to just sitting there passively and listening. I mean, whenever I go to church do you see me challenging the pastor on issues? Hell no.

We can debate, sure. But you're not allowed to point out the flaws in my argument, that's just unfair. And if you do so, I'll ignore your points by claiming their not even relevant."

I don't think anyone else has contributed to making you look like a dumbass man. Take a little personal responsibility.

Dude.... you just keep chiming in with bs...
everything that you have argued has been "quoted" by me in all my posts and refuted.
You havent done that once. You have yet to address one single educated thing that ive said.
Give me a break.

iwantFUEGO Reviewed by iwantFUEGO on 10-26-2006. To the science majors/scientists/science geeks out there... i was sitting in my genetics class today and i realized... God (or whatever creator you believe in) must have been one hell of a chemist. Is anyone else as fascinated as I am by how life works? Most people dont realize that the only reason they exist is because of chemical reactions.... Chemical reactions that are so infinite and specific that anyone who says that this all happened by a "big bang" is a total ignoramus. I dont mean to offend anyone...but, Rating: 5

[andruejaysin]

What everyone here is ranting about is the fact that the biochemical aspects of life... did it or did it not spontaneous evolve without help from a designer? People are claiming that the earth has been around for billions of years... that is a LONG time they claimed, long enough for carbon based beings to evolve into water dependant creatures....

The complexity argues against a creator, if it's all magic then there is no need for biochemical aspects in the first place, for life to need oxygen, food, or anything else. No need for there to be oxygen at all, or any other element. Certainly no need for a fossil record showing life of ever increasing complexity. Way off topic, I realize, but I can't help thinking of GW Bush, who doesn't believe in evolution, yet made his money in fossil fuels. Who know what life waits to be found on mars, or in the clouds of jupiter, or the oceans of europa, or the unimaginably large number of planets circling other stars? I don't claim to know, or even if there is, but if there is it seems reasonable to assume it's biology would be radically different than ours.

[iwantFUEGO]

The complexity argues against a creator, if it's all magic then there is no need for biochemical aspects in the first place, for life to need oxygen, food, or anything else. No need for there to be oxygen at all, or any other element. Certainly no need for a fossil record showing life of ever increasing complexity. Way off topic, I realize, but I can't help thinking of GW Bush, who doesn't believe in evolution, yet made his money in fossil fuels. Who know what life waits to be found on mars, or in the clouds of jupiter, or the oceans of europa, or the unimaginably large number of planets circling other stars? I don't claim to know, or even if there is, but if there is it seems reasonable to assume it's biology would be radically different than ours.

You got the right kind of thinking.

I believe very much in evolution...
I'm not saying that this "designer" created humans... no no.
I'm saying the whole system of biochemistry was designed.
The periodic table as we know it is genius. it arranges elements by their properties and by size very well and helps us visualize. We as humans have created a science out of this "chemistry"... But this chemistry is too complex (ESPECIALLY when you get into the biology aspect of it all) to have somehow evolved to become this way all by chance. We do live in a universe filled with "chaos" and its amazing how live goes againts the rules of chaos in order to arrange itself according to what best suits it.

Sorry if i'm going too deep into this for you ( ), but look at the whole aspect of inducers and repressors in gene expression. I wont explain this system of positive and negative control since i assume you already know about it... Explain to me what it is that makes you believe that a system as complex and as perfectly regulated as this was just created out of thin air, without any influence.

I'm very aware of evolution, and you are right about how much we havent discovered yet... But have you ever sat down and realized just how complex this whole thing called evolution is? Have you ever realized how many specific chemical reactions it takes for evolution to happen?
You can believe in both evolution and intelligent design... theres nothing wrong with that.

[andruejaysin]

Sorry if i'm going too deep into this for you ( ), but look at the whole aspect of inducers and repressors in gene expression. I wont explain this system of positive and negative control since i assume you already know about it... Explain to me what it is that makes you believe that a system as complex and as perfectly regulated as this was just created out of thin air, without any influence.

Actually no, I know shit about genetics, beyond mendel and his peas. But I guess the idea is that the system is self improving, not because everything works, but because so little does. For every improvement there are a million failures, it's simply that these go nowhere, while the rare possitive mutation survives. Obviously you know this already, but it explains things, at least for me. For me the far more profound question is why there is something, rather than nothing? Where did god, or the designer, or the singularity prior to the big bang come from? Neither science, nor religion, nor the hybrid of intellgent design provide any answer at all.

[CJBHM52]

I'm not saying that this "designer" created humans... no no.

But this chemistry is too complex (ESPECIALLY when you get into the biology aspect of it all) to have somehow evolved to become this way all by chance. We do live in a universe filled with "chaos" and its amazing how live goes againts the rules of chaos in order to arrange itself according to what best suits it.

But have you ever sat down and realized just how complex this whole thing called evolution is? Have you ever realized how many specific chemical reactions it takes for evolution to happen?
You can believe in both evolution and intelligent design... theres nothing wrong with that.

can you provide one fact that it is too complex to have evolved from some single cell organism? how do you know its too complex for nature? and what did the creator create if s/he didnt make humans?

[Polymirize]

You have yet to address one single educated thing that ive said.

Dude, I have been searching for one. But it's harder than you'd think.

[CityBoyGoneCountry]

Life (as it exists) was designed so intricately, you cant say that some genius didnt create it... whether you choose to call him God or not.

Before you go giving God all the credit, you need to study more than chemistry. You need to study how evolution works.

Sure, for a fully evolved human being to accidentally appear out of nowhere is about as likely as a tornado hitting a pile of scrap metal and leaving behind a fully built apache helicopter. But for a single-cell organism to come to life and evolve, over millions and millions of years, into a human being, is not so unlikely. In fact, it is far more probable than an all powerful, all knowing omnipotent entity appearing out of nowhere and making the universe out of nothingness.

If you think we are complicated creatures, how complicated do you think God would have to be? If you are going to use God as your explanation for our origins, then you must also be prepared to explain the origins of God.

[psychocat]

We can play with this one all day since we then run into a chicken/egg style argument.
If someone or something designed all we see then who designed the designer?

It's mans feeble attempts to grasp something beyond their knowledge that makes them believe someone or something must've been responsible .

Science is an ongoing thing and all we think we know is simply showing us how little we actualy understand and sometimes just how wrong we can be.

The man who thinks he has the greatest intelligence is the worlds biggest fool.

[anangrymailman]

The counter argument is simply that we should not be surpized to see around us conditions which allow our existence, to the contrary, it would be very odd indeed should we see otherwise.

Well said. My thoughts exactly.

[iwantFUEGO]

For every improvement there are a million failures, it's simply that these go nowhere, while the rare possitive mutation survives. Obviously you know this already

In fact you are wrong... well mostly wrong.
If you want to only look at the BROAD idea of evolution, then yes what you said is partly correct.
BUT
If you were to look at a specific organism... that statement is totally incorrect. Infact, there are many repair mechanisms that are readily available inside every nucleus in your body. Everytime your exposed to UV, you have a chance of mutating DNA... mutations happen spontaneously all the time.
Lets look at DNA replication. In eukaryotes, DNA is replicated anywhere from 500-1000 base pairs per second. Thats 1000 bp per chromosome (46), per nucleus (trillions) in your entire body. Your DNA polymerases will make a mistake about every 1 million base pairs, but thanks to repair proteins we rarely have anything to worry about.
Maybe you dont understand that cells go through numerous functions that include replication, translation, transcription, and protein sythesis (just to name a few associated with DNA). All of these functions have no "brain" to rely on. There is no little person riding around telling the ribosomes to translate the mRNA so they can make proteins... all that happens because the ribosome complex (which is nothing but a bunch of atoms) has sites on it that are exremely specific to the tRNA holding the amino acid.
Dont you get it? All this naturally occuring chemistry is far too specific to have happened by chance.

can you provide one fact that it is too complex to have evolved from some single cell organism? how do you know its too complex for nature?

I'm not saying evolution doesnt exist... we all evolved from simpler organisms.
Procaryotes: Very simple DNA molecules... most of the DNA is composed of coding regions (no DNA is wasted). Transcription and translation both happen in the cytoplasm and only one enzyme (RNA Polymerase) makes the RNA.

Eucaryotes: Very complex DNA molecules (and MUCH larger)... Very little of the DNA is composed of coding regions (exons: "express regions") and the rest is composed of non-coding regions (introns: "intervening regions"). These introns must be spliced out using special proteins before they leave the nucleus. Transcription happens in the nucleus whereas translations happens in the cytoplasm and we have 3 enzymes (RNA Polymerase I, II, and III) that all makes different RNA.

Obviously these two systems are VERY similar... but unicellular organisms dont need the complexity that we need because they handle much fewer genes.

I never said it was too complex for nature. "nature" IS, afterall, all of this happening. I said it was too complex to have designed itself.

Dude, I have been searching for one. But it's harder than you'd think.

LOL ok...


Has anyone ever wondered by we all start from one cell... and then become many, but we have skin cells and bone cells etc.... and they are totally different?? I thought all cell carry the same set of genetic info???
Well youre right, they do...
Its done by a process called gene regulation. Basically, in eukaryotes, if order for an RNA POL to transcribe your DNA, it has to associate itself with many different protiens in order to be able to attach to the DNA strand.
A few of these protiens are called transcription factors (TFIIA, TFIID, etc..)
Now, on each DNA strand, there are multiple sequences called genes. Each gene has something called a promoter infront of it. Inside this promoter region are sequences called regulatory promoters. There arent many of them so the cell uses different combinations for different genes.
In order for the RNA POL to transcribe that gene, it has to have the transcriptional factors readily available in order to bind to the regulatory promoters. If they arent there, the gene product wont be made, and the gene wont be expressed.
You can keep going up the ladder if you want to know how the cells knows the make those transcription factors... but that just shows you how chemically involved the whole system is.
There is NO "brain"... just chemicals that must follow certain rules... and DO, therefore creating life.
Yeah ok... it wasn't designed by something... your right.