To the science majors/scientists/science geeks out there...

[iwantFUEGO]

im not even answering a BS post anymore...

This thread was addressed to scientists... not athiest theorists.

you arent even addressing the important point here...

just chiming in on small details here and there in an attempt to impress someone with your theoretical BS on how biochemistry must involve chance...

well your not impressin me...

[wonderbear]

Anyways what made god?

a good and hard question, i believe god exists, ouside of time and space, but I AM ADMITTING that this is a BELIEF, i can't prove it to you, obviously


but everyone, please consider the harder question, and this is it: EITHER you have an infinite creator, OR you have infinite MATTER

big bang is clever because you give everyone a picture of "nothing" exploding, but it's not supposed to be nothing, it's supposed to be an incredibly small, incredible massive singularity of matter, and it exploded; the theory works for people because it puts matter into such a small amount that you're allowed to forget about it, but what happened BEFORE the singularity???? why did it happen the way it did?

so, for there to be existance, you've got to have something infinite, either matter or a "god"

now why is god the way he is? where did he come from? why are things teh way they are? these are questions that i just have no answer for

i believe certain things, but i have the humility (yes i'm arrogant enough to claim to have humility ) enough to entertain doubt, to REALIZE WITHOUT A DOUBT, that i don't know everything, in fact i know so little it's practically nothign

[iwantFUEGO]

i believe in a god, but i also will admit that i cannot prove that god exists; i do look around the world and think "this looks like design", the beauty of it, beyond the biological i see things in human nature that to me echo the bible

now, given infinate chance it's understandable that "anything" could happen, atleast anything that is possible; whether it's actually possible to create a living thing from nonliving molecules is not for sure; the law of biogenesis says it's not possible, but again that's just a "law" trying to define what we see

i respect the humility of realizing that one cannot truly imagine god completely when we comprehend so little about our own world; i do believe god has reached out to us though, personally

I'm not trying to preach God... believe what you want, you know? :stoned:

All im saying is that we had to have been designed... were just too intricate to just one day become us all of a sudden in a big bang...

I'm just giving that "designer" his props because he must obviously be a "genius" (God or not ) and a master chemist.

Who knows. i know the possibilities are endless. God could be a group of beings from an alien civilization across the universe... i dont know... no one knows.

ALL I SAID IS HE MUSTA BEEN ONE HELL OF A CHEMIST.

[wonderbear]

i wasn't trying to say what you were trying to preach one way or the other, i was stating my own standpoint

[mrdevious]

First of all, I'd like to say once and for all that the Watchbox analogy is bogus. You even earlier described it as "shaking a trillion pieces in the box" to compare it to life. There's no part in evolutionary theory that suggests we took the billions of parts of our genetic code and shook them all in a "box" till it just magically fell together.

Now I believe the reason Polymerize was questioning your "scientific method" is because you're making mass leaps in logic, which essentially are:

Life is amazingly complex
we can't explain how it could be that complex
therefor god did it

All you have is a mystery, the knowledge that some process (even the work of god) created the complexity that exists in life today. Then, rather than exploring some possible ideas about these processes, or excepting that you don't have an explanation, you just give the credit to god by default. "can't explain it? god did it!". The idea of an intelligence creating complexity is only a hypothesis, a proposed explanation for the mystery. Just because you lack other explanations, just because humanity can't yet explain everything that happens in the universe and how every process works and exists, doesn't mean your "intelligent designer" hypothesis is suddenly proven right just because we don't know of a better one yet.
Intelligent design doesn't work. All it does is say "I don't know how to explain it", then takes the old theistic texts that claim a god did it, and say "well that proves it". But it proves nothing, just because the explanation fits doesn't mean it's right. I could explain life as existing because some unknown trans-dimensional fluctuation works through processes that affect molecules in a way so as to create the beginnings of life, which could then grow in complexity through evolutionary processes, meanwhile being assisted by these random yet beneficial fluctuations. But I can't say that's proven right, I can only propose it as a hypothesis.

People are obviously mislead, and in this respect ignorant, when they think a non-god universe means nothing but trillions and trillions of accidents all mistakenly happened so as to coincidentally lead to the same end product.

[flamingskullballs]

same with large numbers... If you shook the box for a trillian billion years straight, doesnt mean that the watch is going to assemble itself.

Theres a chance... but it doesnt mean that chance is definate..

oh no, its definate

you forget, time doesnt end (or at least i hope not)

if you have the ability to shake that box till the end of time, its definate

[birdgirl73]

You have been making a solid point throughout, Fuego. And I've been following this thread since earlier. I'm very tired tonight and very emotionally exhausted, which means I'm not really even smart enough to reply with any skill. But what speaks to me--and don't anyone feel the need to argue here; this is just me expressing what I've been thinking as I've been pondering the miracles of biochem and life and molecules and DNA Fuego referenced--is that it makes me very happy to think about the mysteries of the scientific/biochemical universe having had a designer. I'm fully aware that this is likely just me wanting to make sense of something I can't understand. It's also me struggling spiritually right now because of life-and-death circumstances in my life. But I find the idea of a grand design a comforting and pleasing thought. I who was raised to be a doubter and a questioner, a don't-believe-it-till-it's-proven empiricist, and, essentially, a heathen.

When I look at cells and cell division. When I look at how genetic information makes us into what we are. When I look at adenine, guanine, cytosine and thymine and how they work together to build people. When I consider human reproduction from haploid and diploid chromosomes to conception to birth. It pleases me to think of these wonderful things as being part of a grand plan, whether I truly buy that intellectually or not. On an emotional/spiritual level, it gives me peace right now.

I've followed you well, Fuego, and I'm glad you had the nerve to stay with this. I'll probably get flamed clear out into next month by the hard-shell scientists. But I know why you think this way about biochem because I do the same thing. Whether we're right or not isn't going to be something we'll ever figure out. I'm sure of that. But I still like thinking about it all.

Keep up the science study, Fuego. I'm glad you wrote this thread. I've enjoyed it.

[iwantFUEGO]

i wasn't trying to say what you were trying to preach one way or the other, i was stating my own standpoint

I wasnt attacking you bro i agree with what your saying.

First of all, I'd like to say once and for all that the Watchbox analogy is bogus. You even earlier described it as "shaking a trillion pieces in the box" to compare it to life. There's no part in evolutionary theory that suggests we took the billions of parts of our genetic code and shook them all in a "box" till it just magically fell together.

Now I believe the reason Polymerize was questioning your "scientific method" is because you're making mass leaps in logic, which essentially are:

Life is amazingly complex
we can't explain how it could be that complex
therefor god did it

All you have is a mystery, the knowledge that some process (even the work of god) created the complexity that exists in life today. Then, rather than exploring some possible ideas about these processes, or excepting that you don't have an explanation, you just give the credit to god by default. "can't explain it? god did it!". The idea of an intelligence creating complexity is only a hypothesis, a proposed explanation for the mystery. Just because you lack other explanations, just because humanity can't yet explain everything that happens in the universe and how every process works and exists, doesn't mean your "intelligent designer" hypothesis is suddenly proven right just because we don't know of a better one yet.
Intelligent design doesn't work. All it does is say "I don't know how to explain it", then takes the old theistic texts that claim a god did it, and say "well that proves it". But it proves nothing, just because the explanation fits doesn't mean it's right. I could explain life as existing because some unknown trans-dimensional fluctuation works through processes that affect molecules in a way so as to create the beginnings of life, which could then grow in complexity through evolutionary processes, meanwhile being assisted by these random yet beneficial fluctuations. But I can't say that's proven right, I can only propose it as a hypothesis.

People are obviously mislead, and in this respect ignorant, when they think a non-god universe means nothing but trillions and trillions of accidents all mistakenly happened so as to coincidentally lead to the same end product.

You make a good point... only I'm not trying to explain how life came together.
No one knows this.

All we can do is observe and study our surrounding and learn as much about it as we can... which is what humans have been doing for thousands of years.

I reiterate... im not preaching god... just a designer of life on earth..... and he/she/it is an incredible chemist.

Thats all

[wonderbear]

First of all, I'd like to say once and for all that the Watchbox analogy is bogus. You even earlier described it as "shaking a trillion pieces in the box" to compare it to life. There's no part in evolutionary theory that suggests we took the billions of parts of our genetic code and shook them all in a "box" till it just magically fell together.

Now I believe the reason Polymerize was questioning your "scientific method" is because you're making mass leaps in logic, which essentially are:

Life is amazingly complex
we can't explain how it could be that complex
therefor god did it

All you have is a mystery, the knowledge that some process (even the work of god) created the complexity that exists in life today. Then, rather than exploring some possible ideas about these processes, or excepting that you don't have an explanation, you just give the credit to god by default. "can't explain it? god did it!". The idea of an intelligence creating complexity is only a hypothesis, a proposed explanation for the mystery. Just because you lack other explanations, just because humanity can't yet explain everything that happens in the universe and how every process works and exists, doesn't mean your "intelligent designer" hypothesis is suddenly proven right just because we don't know of a better one yet.
Intelligent design doesn't work. All it does is say "I don't know how to explain it", then takes the old theistic texts that claim a god did it, and say "well that proves it". But it proves nothing, just because the explanation fits doesn't mean it's right. I could explain life as existing because some unknown trans-dimensional fluctuation works through processes that affect molecules in a way so as to create the beginnings of life, which could then grow in complexity through evolutionary processes, meanwhile being assisted by these random yet beneficial fluctuations. But I can't say that's proven right, I can only propose it as a hypothesis.

People are obviously mislead, and in this respect ignorant, when they think a non-god universe means nothing but trillions and trillions of accidents all mistakenly happened so as to coincidentally lead to the same end product.

good points; what you're saying is really what i'm saying when i say "i can't prove what i believe"

i respect y'all's other viewpoints very much, and am interested hearing them; i've found that as i've grown older, though i still believe what i believe, i recognize more and more my own ignorance

[iwantFUEGO]

You have been making a solid point throughout, Fuego. And I've been following this thread since earlier. I'm very tired tonight and very emotionally exhausted, which means I'm not really even smart enough to reply with any skill. But what speaks to me--and don't anyone feel the need to argue here; this is just me expressing what I've been thinking as I've been pondering the miracles of biochem and life and molecules and DNA Fuego referenced--is that it makes me very happy to think about the mysteries of the scientific/biochemical universe having had a designer. I'm fully aware that this is likely just me wanting to make sense of something I can't understand. It's also me struggling spiritually right now because of life-and-death circumstances in my life. But I find the idea of a grand design a comforting and pleasing thought. I who was raised to be a doubter and a questioner, a don't-believe-it-till-it's-proven empiricist, and, essentially, a heathen.

When I look at cells and cell division. When I look at how genetic information makes us into what we are. When I look at adenine, guanine, cytosine and thymine and how they work together to build people. When I consider human reproduction from haploid and diploid chromosomes to conception to birth. It pleases me to think of these wonderful things as being part of a grand plan, whether I truly buy that intellectually or not. On an emotional/spiritual level, it gives me peace right now.

I've followed you well, Fuego, and I'm glad you had the nerve to stay with this. I'll probably get flamed clear out into next month by the hard-shell scientists. But I know why you think this way about biochem because I do the same thing. Whether we're right or not isn't going to be something we'll ever figure out. I'm sure of that. But I still like thinking about it all.

Keep up the science study, Fuego. I'm glad you wrote this thread. I've enjoyed it.

I love you.

Thats exactly what im trying to say.