Atheism

[Oneironaut]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles...ws_on_religion

Charles Darwin had a Non-conformist background, but attended a Church of England school. He studied Anglican theology with the aim of becoming a clergyman, before joining the Voyage of the Beagle. On return, he developed his theory of natural selection in full awareness that it conflicted with the teleological argument. Darwin deliberated about the Christian meaning of mortality and came to think that the religious instinct had evolved with society. With the death of his daughter Annie, Darwin lost all faith in a beneficent God and saw Christianity as futile. He continued to give support to the local church and help with parish work, but on Sundays would go for a walk while his family attended church.

In his later life, Darwin was frequently asked about his religious views. He went as far as saying that he did "not believe in the Bible as a divine revelation", but was always insistent that he was agnostic and had "never been an atheist".

[Krogith]

Explain to me this please. If there is no god and everything is a random happening. Everything we see could make it self your saying. All the atoms are there so anything is possable. So heres my question.

Why have you never found a Working Car? or a toaster? That came from nothing. All the atoms exsisted. and in your random world anything is possable. If a complex thing such as life just happen to form why not everything else? Why do things need a creator?

[Ignatius]

That's just a silly question.

It's possible to see how mankind evolved from apes. But if you leavea pile of nuts and bolts lying around they won't suddenly turn into a car or a toaster.

You don't really need anyone to explain why this is do you?

Or maybe you do... if so then please seek help.

[Oneironaut]

Explain to me please. If everything complex has to have a creator, then surely the creator of the universe (i.e. the MOST COMPLEX THING IN EXISTENCE) must logically also have a creator too right? I mean, something as complex as a superintelligent universe-creator can't just pop out of nothingness for no reason, can it? Something that complex surely must be designed!

[mrdevious]

Explain to me this please. If there is no god and everything is a random happening. Everything we see could make it self your saying. All the atoms are there so anything is possable. So heres my question.

Why have you never found a Working Car? or a toaster? That came from nothing. All the atoms exsisted. and in your random world anything is possable. If a complex thing such as life just happen to form why not everything else? Why do things need a creator?

Krogith, this has been said a billion times before in a billion other threads. Just because god isn't the catalyst, that doesn't mean everything is one big random one-in-trillion-chance super-lucky accident. As has been explained countless times already, cars and toaster do not have genetic mutation. All life has a genetic code, and all genetic codes are subject to mutation and natural selection. Further, cars and toaster are the result of human interferrence, not natural processes. Just because natural processes can create planets, solar systems, and lifeforms, doesn't mean that they should also create cars, toasters, and accidental Iron Maiden albums, or whatever else human beings have created out of the already formed universe. Instead of just assuming that a lack of god means infinite atoms just randomly falling into place, maybe you should actually do a little research. And as I've said countless times before (yet again), lacking a current explanation for certain aspects of the world does not mean god can just get the credit by default. It means we haven't explained it yet, just like we couldn't have possibly explained the chemical reactions that create thunder 30,000 years ago, yet now we can. Though I suppose we should have just attributed thunder to god moving his furniture until we did have an explanation.

[Krogith]

so the process for genitic mutation was there and the laws for these things just happen to be? but no where could other random things take place like. why isn't everything teamming with some form of life. wheres the moon things and wheres the other forms of life that all have the same chance to come to be. your saying that life finds and makes it own way. where are the things that have made them self able to live in the sun or things that breath not oxygen and fromed on a comet. wheres the life that has found a way to live in space and off sun energy. O thats right life can only live as you know it. If your right we would see endless life from endless atoms and bacteria and be able to watch it create new life today. what caused life to stop why can we not make a new life or watch something elvolve today?

Do you even understand how complex bacteria is? These things just don't pop out of no where. or could even be recreated today. You have no proof of life formming it self.

[mrdevious]

so the process for genitic mutation was there and the laws for these things just happen to be?

Your assuming that every law, like human laws, MUST be designed. But natural selection doesn't "just have to be", it simply makes logical sense. Those who have a disadvantageous genetic structure will be removed from the gene pool. No design necessary, just common sense.

but no where could other random things take place like.

You've really got to stop using the term "random" so much. No proposed process, proven or unproven, claims that things come into being by random. Random mutations, chemical reactions, and so forth, may occure all the time, but they are not the cause for developement, only the material that's being worked with.

why isn't everything teamming with some form of life. wheres the moon things and wheres the other forms of life that all have the same chance to come to be. your saying that life finds and makes it own way. where are the things that have made them self able to live in the sun or things that breath not oxygen and fromed on a comet. wheres the life that has found a way to live in space and off sun energy.

Once again, you're assuming that a process which applies to one aspect in existence, must apply to ALL things (aspects) in existence. Life as we know it, or wherever it may exist, exists because the conditions were right for life to form. No evolutionist or any other theorist claims that absolutely every circumstance in any way, shape, or form must produce life. It is only claimed that life will arise, where circumstances are ideal for life to form, based on the available material. So far as I know, the center of a sun, or rings of saturn, or wherever, do not have the proper resources and conditions to create cellular life or proteins and gentic codes.

O thats right life can only live as you know it.

I don't recall claiming that.

what caused life to stop why can we not make a new life or watch something elvolve today?

I see no evidence that life has stopped, new species are arising and being discovered all the time. And no, we can't make a new life, yet, but there was a time when we couldn't fly too.
And you're right, we can't watch something evolve today. But what exactly do you think evolution is, X-men? an little wingless birdie didn't just walk along one day and suddenly grow wings and fly away. Evolution can't be directly observed, but only observed through fossil records, and potentially through human records assuming we can keep them a few million years. When we talk about evolution we're not talking about the creature that suddenly grows a new flibblejib that gives him an edge, we're talking about microscopic advantageous changes that occure over millions (or billions) of years. I can't even explain the immensely complex system of evolution just through these boards, go out and get a good book on it, or find a good website.

Do you even understand how complex bacteria is? These things just don't pop out of no where. or could even be recreated today.

Exactly, NOTHING pops out of no where, not through evolution or god or the theory flibblejibbledynamics. I don't know how to make it any clearer, NOTHING is the result of "poping out of nowhere".

You have no proof of life formming it self.

I don't, though I'm not an expert in evolutionary biology. I can guarantee you there's plenty of evidence out there however. But this is all moot, disproving one theory does not automatically prove another. So far every argument for god I've heard relies on providing a lack of evidence for something, so god can get the credit by default. There isn't one piece of empiracle evidence that god had anything to do with anything.

btw, why did our "intelligent designer" give women a reproductive system that required 4 days of bleeding, pain, and mood swings? not to mention I'm wondering why he gave men such sensitive testicles, gave us all such sensitive and delicate eyes, gave us wisdom teeth which have to be yanked out (almost as if they're left over from a sub-human species with wider jaws), plus he gave us millions of little cancer cells ready to activate, joints that develope arthritis when we get old, brains that deteriorate at old age.

How about viruses like ebola that liquify our organs and make you shit them out, or HIV that remain's dormant for up to 24 years before giving you a slow painfull death, or leprosy that deforms you and eventually kills you. You'd think if god needs some population control he would just send down a virus that kills you quickly and painlessly.

And why wouldn't this world have all worked out by now? God has infinite wisdome and infinite power. Surely he would know that the holy scriptures he sends down wouldn't be enough, that the intelligence and critical thinking skills he gives us would lead heathens like myself to disbelieve his rather vague system of "faith". Why even bother to send down his word through Jesus when it's obviouly not enough to convince us. Freedom of will you say? Well he designed us, he designed out nature, he designed the processes going through our brains that make our will the way it is today. He should know exactly how this free will, and it's nature, will turn out.

Not to mention. Haven't all the holy profits had rather lame explanations? I mean they explained disease with demons, obviously oblivious to causes like viruses, bacteria, chemical imbalances. Why couldn't god explain things beyond the current scope of understanding? Like "hey you guys, just so you know, when the industrial revolution starts you're going to horribly pulute your planet, so be carefull of that. and btw, the reason you get sick is because there's microscopic organisms making you sick. and since I know you're going to twist my word in such-and-such a way to justify war, let me clarify...".

and might I say, it would have been really nice if Jesus performed some miracles that would leave some empiracle evidence. "and so Jesus removed the great mountain, placed it accross the lake, and turned the area into furtile farmland".

[Krogith]

don;t you get it were proveing the fact that we need god right now. This debate is bigger than Mankind. All creation is being put to the test. There is a grater Issue being proved than what you see.

All your ideas about the prophets saying deamons caused all sickness is misslead.

[mrdevious]

don;t you get it were proveing the fact that we need god right now. This debate is bigger than Mankind. All creation is being put to the test. There is a grater Issue being proved than what you see.

To each his own Krogith, to each his own...

I'm afraid with the way my mind works, I can't believe something because I should, I need some real evidence to believe it. Otherwise I don't see why it's any more valid than the countless other gods and mythologies from long ago that people were so certain were correct. If we're "proving the fact we need god right now", that tells me you've already made your conclusion before taking the steps. Tell you what, when the end of times (or whatever's coming) comes, you can come here and say "I told you so" to me and I'll concede you were right.

[Krogith]

Science has now advanced enough to have uncovered the foundation level of life. And much to our suprise, scientists have found functional, complex machinery at the molecular level of life. For instance, within living cells there are little molecular "trucks" that carry supplies from one side of the cell to the other. there are tiny molecular "sign posts" that tell these "trucks" to turn left or right. Some cells have molecular "outboard motors" that propel the cells through liquid. In any other Context, when such functional complexity is evident, People would conclude that these things were Designed.