They say in american we are free right?

[Oneironaut]

Just because there are other places in the world that are even less free than in America doesn't mean America is free.

Of course, if we want to talk about freedom, we have to know exactly what we mean by the term. The problem with this "freedom" rhetoric our political leaders use is that they don't actually define what they mean when they use the word "freedom". What is freedom?

Freedom, as I define it, is the ability to do whatever one pleases so long as one does not harm anyone else, exploit anyone else, or restrict that same freedom for anyone else. The only actions worth punishing are actions where one person intentionally harms, exploits, or restricts the liberty of someone else. Of course, this makes the United States government a criminal organization in itself, because it harms people unnecessarily (i.e. wars, embargoes, the violent subdual of non-violent criminals), exploits people (i.e. stealing money in the form of taxes), and restricts the liberty of everybody (i.e. outlawing things like drug use, gambling, public nudity and prostitution).

[higher4hockey]

^ you and i have very different outlooks on things !!

think about this, does the fact that smoking weed is illegal, stop that many people from doing it ? you can go your whole life without ever getting caught, if you're smart about it. so its really not that big of an issue. smoke responsibly and you shouldn't have to many worries. now getting a job where the company drug tests could be about your only problem, that i don't agree with, but thats a whole 'nother arguement.

but to say this country isn't free because of a drug law, thats jacked up. saying that you're spitting in the face of everyone who has ever defended what this country stands for. if this country wasn't free, you wouldn't be able to question its laws without fear of reprisal.

[Oneironaut]

So the government decided it isn't going to kick my ass for saying bad stuff about it, and that makes me free? So I guess if Hitler had allowed people to question the Holocaust without fear of reprisal, that would have made Nazi Germany free? If Stalin had allowed the people in the gulags freedom of religion, that would have made the USSR free? If the blacks in apartheid-era South Africa were able to have the freedom to a speedy trial, that would have made them free?

Just because I can get away with smoking pot in my own home doesn't mean our government isn't violating people's freedom with its drug laws. That's like saying that China is free despite its restrictions on freedom of speech, because you can get away with talking shit about the Chinese government in private if nobody rats you out.

Sorry, but the U.S. Constitution is no guarantee of freedom. Just remember, the Constitution was able to legally co-exist with the institution of chattel slavery for nearly a century. All governments infringe upon freedom. That's what it means to govern: to exercise authority over others, to write the rules, and to impose your will upon those who disagree with the rules you've written. The Bill of Rights is just a list of ten specific ways the government could restrict our freedom, but has decided it won't. Unless it can get away with it of course, which it often does.

What exactly do you mean by freedom? Because in my book, freedom doesn't mean not being punished for a specific list of ten things. Freedom is the ability to do whatever I want and live my life however I want, so long as I don't harm, exploit, or restrict the liberty of anyone else. In prohibiting harmless activities the government is restricting people's freedom, and to assert otherwise you'd have to be either lying or seriously deluded.

Sure, this country is less restrictive than other countries, and I'm grateful for that, but that doesn't make it free. I'm not naïve enough to think that our society, for the first time in the history of the world, has reached the ultimate pinnacle of freedom and that no further freedoms are worth fighting for because our society is as free as any society possibly can be. I know there's still plenty of freedom-fighting to be done. There's a lot of oppression and inequality, even within our own country, and something has to be done about it. It doesn't matter if people elsewhere are even less free. All infringements upon human liberty need to be questioned and, if found to be unnecessary, abolished.

[thatsgoodthc]

We are all born free these rules are just a fabrication. Philosophy aside, these drug laws are designed to strip you of your freedom, you smoke a joint, realize you're being fucked, then all of a sudden your busted, and now a felon who can't vote.

They can take your kids, your car, your home, and even shoot your dog. All for a plant, I agree with you it hardly feels free. Right now democracy is broken, and whenever the war on drugs ended it will be considered a dark age equal to alcohol prohibition.

Weed is infact illegal because it grows everywhere. Even in closet in Siberia, so of course they can't make much profit on it. An ounce of weed would be so cheap without the schedule I classification, which likens it to heroin.

Want the laws changed? Get involved in politics, even on a small scale it'll help. Find out who represents our cause in your state and work for them. We have to get these bastards out of office if we want to make any difference. Get the lesser criminal elected.

It's obvious this administration does not care about protests, and it doesn't mean we should stop. However, I think more can be done from the inside and getting the right people elected will certainly help. The DEA is fucking with voters in Colorado, and all kinds of facist shit.

They want you to feel hopeless in the system so they can finish destroying it. Don't let them turn us into China, because this barely feels like America anymore. No we don't have conscription or harvest the organs out of our prisoners, but give them time.

They already use US prisoners for cheap labor like sewing jeans at 45 cents an hour. Imagine a lot of non-violent recidivist potheads sewing jeans for spoiled rich kids, because it's a reality.

Join NORML. Do something, because bitching on the internet doing nothing is exactly the problem. I'll admit I was never to active, but the more I learned about this war the more I had to be an activist.

Soon the war on drugs and the war on terror will be one, and people will still just be bitching on the internet on how much shit sucks. Meanwhile the wealthy 1% get their jeans and made cheap, and pass a little profit to the politicians and prison contractors.

[benagain]

... Meanwhile the wealthy 1% get their jeans and made cheap, and pass a little profit to the politicians and prison contractors.

That reminded me of a fun little fact. The top 1% income earners in the us pay roughly a third of all the income taxes paid. The top 50% pay about 96% of the income taxes. Nothing really to do with this thread, but I thought I'd throw it out there while I was thinking of it.

[twist n shout]

America is the land of the free BECAUSE of the brave.I think alot of americans take our freedom for granted & exploit alot of what most of us hold near & dear to our hearts.Granted,our government is not perfect,but its the best we got,and its alot better than most governments out there.Some people spend alot of time putting down our government,all the while failing to remember that,in doing so in and of itself is one of the freedoms we hold dear.Young men &women are dying every day so we can do just that without fear of reprisal.I just think we all need to remember the freedoms we do have,and remember why we have them.It could be alot worse.Think about that next time you flip on a lightswitch,cook yourself a meal,or even worship to whatever higher power you CHOOSE to.Even in this nation of seemingly endless freedom we enjoy,we should be trying to fix what we dont agree with,by democratic vote,rather than being so critical of our government.Its all we got,we got to make it work.If you dont like it,you can always move to another country.You can even run for public office if you so choose to.Thats why we live in america.:thumbsup: :smokin: :stoned:

[lsdreamz]

homework assignments: everyone go and take acid

[higher4hockey]

oneironaut ~ so basically you're saying that because we can't openly do drugs, we're not free? you need to get your priorities straight man!

twist -n- shout ~ i'm glad someone finally sees it the same way i do.

[jabawoky]

america doesnt know how to defend a country,only how to attack;iraq,afghanistan,grenada,vietnam;only when the war machine has destroyed the world will it cease.i say fuck um