Communism

[DoctorCubensis]

Democratic Socialism FTW. I know my avatar implies I'm a communist, but it exists to show my solidarity with many of Marx's beliefs.

[Oneironaut]

Then why are you using a distinctly Leninist symbol? The hammer and sickle wasn't invented until long after Marx was dead, by an authoritarian party of bureaucrats who, instead of seizing the means of production for the people, violently crushed attempts at popular ownership of the means of production through democratic worker's councils, and imposed bureaucratic state ownership of the means of production, run by dictators outside the people's control, essentially allowing class society to continue albeit in a different form.

Why you would want to associate yourself with such an anti-proletarian and brutal régime is beyond me.

[Oneironaut]

This is where communism is self defeating. "Decisions on how workplaces and societies should be run are made democratically by their members." So, if a decision is to be made it is put to a vote. It is unlikely that all will agree everytime. What about those who have a dissenting opinion? Do they have to go along with what the majority has agreed to? If so, isn't that having someone else's ideas enforced on them? If not, what was the point of the decision in the first place?

So, you're against democracy? Sure, democracy's not perfect, but it's the best damn form of social organization available. Society should be controlled by the people, and its policies chosen by those who are affected by them. Having one person or a small bureaucracy in charge of decisions, historically, has led to some pretty grim consequences, and I would like to see it avoided as much as possible, which means advocating democracy in all avenues of human affairs, so that we may be in charge of our own destiny. Just because people don't always reach 100% unanimously supported decisions doesn't mean that democracy can't work, or that a small elite should be authorized to enforce their decisions on everybody else.

Why is it that so many people who praise the principles of democracy in some areas of life are completely apathetic to the fact that virtually all workplaces are organized in a rigid, top-down, totalitarian hierarchy with no democratic input from the workers whatsoever in how their own workplace should be run?

If you're really interested in seeing communism at work I suggest you study Chinese history from 1949 to the early '80's. Once you get beyond Mao and his atrocities you will see an intersting perpective on communism at work. And I'm not talking about the political side of communism. I mean the actual attempt to make a go of something resembling true communism.

Through authoritarian institutions like the state...I'm not that kind of communist, and I do not see how a failed attempt at Maoism is proof that all currents of communism are incapable of success. Take some time to actually study the different strands of socialism sometime, the different conflicting theories involved and how their different views on class struggle and revolution could shape the practical outcomes of their ideas.

[Oneironaut]

P.S. Communism is always political; there is no non-political side to communism, since communism is a political ideology. The attempt at achieving the classless, stateless society known as communism is a political action by definition.

[Mark Bryan]

COMMUNISM! THE RED HORSE OF THE APOCALYPSE!

[Fengzi]

So, you're against democracy? Sure, democracy's not perfect, but it's the best damn form of social organization available. Society should be controlled by the people, and its policies chosen by those who are affected by them. Why is it that so many people who praise the principles of democracy in some areas of life are completely apathetic to the fact that virtually all workplaces are organized in a rigid, top-down, totalitarian hierarchy with no democratic input from the workers whatsoever in how their own workplace should be run?

.

No, you miss my point. I am all for democracy and the democratic process. My point is that we are not all thoughtless clones who will agree on everything everytime. You pointed out that "Communism is a stateless, classless society in which nobody has the power to enforce their ideas on other people. Decisions on how workplaces and societies should be run are made democratically by their members" Well, that's fine and dandy but someone is bound to disagree. And that person who disagrees will be forced to go along with the majority decision or that decision is meaningless. It makes no difference if that decision is made by the people, the Boss Man, or the government. Once "The People" are put in a position to make these decisions they become no less of an institution than the government is. Sooner or later you end up with two classes: "The People" and those who disagree with "The People". Thus the goal of a "classless society in which nobody has the power to enforce their ideas on other people has failed.