Jews vs. Muslims:

[eg420ne]

Remember the USS Liberty

[Psycho4Bud]

Do you think modern society would react differently if more people in the muslim community actually spoke out againts the actions of their extremists?

Reminds me of the biker code: NEVER bad mouth a brother in public...private only. On the street he's ALWAYS right.

Have a good one!:thumbsup:

[BobBong]

Do you think modern society would react differently if more people in the muslim community actually spoke out againts the actions of their extremists?

Do you not think modern society would react differently if more listened to the people that are speaking out against the actions of the (not their) "extremists". I've heard many people from the muslim community speak out against the actions of these people. Toronto is very diverse.

I'm curious if you've actually been on the street and talked to common ordinary people.. That just so happen to carry the muslim belief.

like I said, Bigotry will be what holds our society back. People just can't get over the fact that there really isn't "One True Religion".

Bob.

[Aaron385]

Reminds me of the biker code: NEVER bad mouth a brother in public...private only. On the street he's ALWAYS right.

Hmm.. Do you think the muslim society would react differently if more people in the muslim community actually spoke out againts the actions of their extremists in private? Do you think they speak out against the actions of their extremists in private? Or do you think they speak out FOR the actions of the extremists in private?

I know the USA and just about every other western civilization speak out constantly against terrorism and Im pretty sure we protect anyone else who does the same (i.e. Israel). Do you think they are that afraid of their own people? Im not sure personally.. Id like to know what the truth is.

To answer if I have spoken to people personally.. yes I have.. often.. and the answer I normally get from people of the muslim faith is that the extremests are doing what is necessary to stop the opressive Israeli forces. That is what scares me.. ALOT!

[Fengzi]

Do you think modern society would react differently if more people in the muslim community actually spoke out againts the actions of their extremists?

It is done from time to time. Shortly after 9/11 my parents next door neighbors, a very nice Muslim family we've known for years, came by specifically to say that they found the actions of the terrorists deplorable, not representative of the general Muslim comunity, and that they hoped my parents wouldn't think poorly of them because of it. We have a pretty large Muslim population here in the San Francisco area and I heard a lot of other stories like this.

Unfortunately, and although I believe my parents neighbors were sincere, its really all just talk. What the Muslim community really needs to do is to start policing its own. You always hear about terrorists "recruiting" new members or funds at the local mosques. I can't help but wonder how many Muslims know about these activities but never say anything even if they disagree. But yeah, I would definitely think the attitude of non-Muslims would definietly be different if we started see more headlines like "Local Muslims turn over extremest group to authorities"

[Aaron385]

I can't help but wonder how many Muslims know about these activities but never say anything even if they disagree. But yeah, I would definitely think the attitude of non-Muslims would definietly be different if we started see more headlines like "Local Muslims turn over extremest group to authorities"

I agree with you on that one.. I wish they would take more action towards self policing.. I dont know how many times Im going to hear 20% of the worlds population cant control their own activities but then they are haulted in their tracks by .2% of the world population and complain about it.

I know I keep using "they" and "them" a bunch but I promise.. I am probably the least racist person you will ever meet. My friends are what you would call "good muslims" and I wish nothing but good for them. I would like to see their population as a whole make some different choices.. but anyways.. back to the debate!

[Bong30]

First off,
Arron you are right on the money. Islam is a religion that holds people back. Look at there women...dont want them smart.

In this New Book by Dick Lamm he brings up very interesting points that you could put twards the Muslim people

Some statements from his 2006 book "Two Wands, One Nation" generated controversy:

"Let me offer you, metaphorically, two magic wands that have sweeping powers to change society. With one wand you could wipe out all racism and discrimination from the hearts and minds of white America. The other wand you could wave across the ghettos and barrios of America and infuse the inhabitants with Japanese or Jewish values, respect for learning and ambition."

"I suggest that the best wand for society and for those who live in the ghettos and barrios would be the second wand."

In July 2006 Dick Lamm said that many Blacks and Hispanics(in my word Muslims too, look at paris) had formed an underclass whose cultures were "not success-producing" in the midst of a national immigration debate that is especially strong in Colorado.


Also..... remember when did you hear a "moderate Muslim" stand up and call out the violence.

SOOOOOO i SAY THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MODERATE MUSLIM TILL THEY STAND AGAINST RADICALS...............


Now lets get into what they are tought in school........



A madrassa is an Islamic religious school. Many of the Taliban were educated in Saudi-financed madrassas in Pakistan that teach Wahhabism, a particularly austere and rigid form of Islam which is rooted in Saudi Arabia. Around the world, Saudi wealth and charities contributed to an explosive growth of madrassas during the Afghan jihad against the Soviets. During that war (1979-1989), a new kind of madrassa emerged in the Pakistan-Afghanistan region -- not so much concerned about scholarship as making war on infidels.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^did you read that^^^^^^^^^^ READ IT!

The enemy then was the Soviet Union, today it's America. Here are analyses of the madrassas from interviews with Vali Nasr, an authority on Islamic fundamentalism, and Richard Holbrooke, former U.S. ambassador to the U.N. (For more on the role of madrassas in producing militant Islamists, see the story of Haroun Fazul.)


1.2 billion Muslims 10% are wahabbist 120 million want you dead, or convert to islam

For those that dont know

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV VVV


Wahhabism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Wahhabi)

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Wahhabism (Arabic: الوهابية, Wahabism, Wahabbism) is a Sunni fundamentalist Islamic movement, named after Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab (1703â??1792). It is the dominant form of Islam in Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Many members of the movement object to the term "Wahhabism", preferring the term "Salafism



Origin of the term "Wahhabi"
The term "Wahhabi" (Wahhābīya) refers to the movement's founder Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab. It is rarely used by members of this group today, although the Saudis did use it in the past.

The Wahhabis claim to hold to the way of the "Salaf as-Salih", the "pious predecessors" as earlier propagated mainly by Ibn Taymiyya, his students Ibn Al Qayyim, and later by Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab and his followers.


Wahhabism accepts the Qur'an and hadith as fundamental texts, interpreted upon the understanding of the first three generations of Islam. It also accepts various commentaries including Ibn Abd al-Wahhab's book called Kitab al-Tawhid ("Book of Monotheism"), and the works of the earlier scholar Ibn Taymiyya (1263â??1328).

Wahhabis do not follow any specific madhhab (method or school of jurisprudence), but claim to interpret the words of the prophet Muhammad directly, using the four maddhab for reference. However, they are often associated with the Hanbali maddhab. Wahhabi theology advocates a puritanical and legalistic stance in matters of faith and religious practice.

Wahhabists see their role as a movement to restore Islam from what they perceive to be innovations, superstitions, deviances, heresies and idolatries. There are many practices that they believe are contrary to Islam, such as:

Invoking of any prophet, Sufi saint, or angel in prayer, other than God alone (Wahhabists believe these practices are polytheistic in nature)
Visiting the graves of Sufi saints or prophets and asking the dead for help
Celebrating annual feasts for Sufi saints
Wearing of charms, and believing in their healing power
Practicing magic, or going to sorcerers or witches to seek healing
Innovation in matters of religion (e.g. new methods of worship)
Modern spread of Wahhabism
In 1924 the Wahhabi al-Saud dynasty conquered Mecca and Medina, the Muslim holy cities. This gave them control of the Hajj, the annual pilgrimage, and the opportunity to preach their version of Islam to the assembled pilgrims. However, Wahhabism was a minor current within Islam until the discovery of oil in Arabia, in 1938. Vast oil revenues gave an immense impetus to the spread of Wahhabism. Saudi laypeople, government officials and clerics have donated many tens of millions of US dollars to create religious schools, newspapers and outreach organizations.

Salafism and Qutbism
Hassan al-Banna, the Egyptian founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, is said to have been influenced by the Wahhabis. The Muslim Brotherhood also claimed to be purifying and restoring original Islam. When the Muslim Brotherhood was banned in various Middle Eastern countries, Saudi Arabia gave refuge to Brotherhood exiles. This seems to have set the stage for a mingling of Brotherhood and Wahhabi thought under the aegis of the term Salafism. Rebels against the Saudi state found justification in the thought of Sayyed Qutb, a member of the Brotherhood who spent years in Egyptian jails. Some Wahhabis, or Salafis, rejected what they call Qutbism, as a deviation from true Salafism. Thus there is now a considerable spectrum of religious opinion within Saudi Wahhabism/Salafism, to a great extent divided on the question of whether the Saudi state is to be supported, endured patiently, or violently opposed. See Salafism for further commentary.





an authority on Islamic fundamentalism

All of these groups are rooted in a network of seminaries, or as the term is called in the local vernacular, "madrassa." My argument was that the main source of funding for these groups is Saudi Arabia. In fact, this whole phenomenon that we are confronting, which Al Qaeda is a part of, is very closely associated with Saudi Arabia's financial and religious projects for the Muslim world as a whole. ...


You said that the main source of funding for these Islamic extremists--

Or at least the institutions that train them.


-- is whom?

It's Saudi Arabia and its network of charities and the like. The argument I make is that there is an undercurrent of terror and fanaticism that go hand in hand in the Afghanistan-Pakistan arc, and extend all the way to Uzbekistan. And you can see reflections of it in Bosnia, in Kosovo, in Indonesia, in the Philippines.

For instance, in one madrassa in Pakistan, I interviewed 70 Malaysian and Thai students who are being educated side by side with students who went on to the Afghan war and the like. These people return to their countries, and then we see the results in a short while. ... At best, they become hot-headed preachers in mosques that encourage fighting Christians in Nigeria or in Indonesia. And in a worst case, they actually recruit or participate in terror acts.


What you're saying is that, if we wanted to look for the causes of what's happened -- Al Qaeda and the movement worldwide -- we would have to look to the schools, to the educational system which Saudi Arabia has fostered in the Islamic world?

... In order to have terrorists, in order to have supporters for terrorists, in order to have people who are willing to interpret religion in violent ways, in order to have people who are willing to legitimate crashing yourself into a building and killing 5,000 innocent people, you need particular interpretations of Islam.

Those interpretations of Islam are being propagated out of schools that receive organizational and financial funding from Saudi Arabia. In fact, I would push it further: that these schools would not have existed without Saudi funding. They would not have proliferated across Pakistan and India and Afghanistan without Saudi funding. They would not have had the kind of prowess that they have without Saudi funding, and they would not have trained as many people without Saudi funding.


Please some one post me article where Muslim leaders stand against the killing of Infidels.


VVVVVVVVVVVV i didnt learn that in school VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

PC crap is going to kill us,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I dont do PC.....(no shit bong)

[jamstigator]

You hit on a pretty difference between Christians and Muslims there: Jesus preached that killing anybody is bad, ever; Mohammed had no problem with the killing of infidels. That's not to say that there aren't killer Christians, or that there are no peaceful Muslims who don't want to kill anyone, including 'infidels'. But deep down at the core of the two religions, that is a not a trivial difference, or one that should be ignored.

I'm no Muslim-hater, incidentally. I lived in Turkey for over a year, and I really immersed myself in the culture, learned the language, slept with their women. More than half the time, if I was hanging around with anyone, they were Turkish and I was the only American around. I woke up each morning with the tolling of the bells to signify their morning prayer to Mecca (or whatever they are doing at that ungodly hour). I listened to the bleating of sheep the day before a Muslim holiday, and the total lack of bleating the next day which was replaced with the smells of now-cooking sheep. If the only Muslims you're around are the peaceful kind, which is how it was for me, they're really great people, or at least the Turks were (with a few exceptions, but there are bad folks in any population).

I don't know where these peaceful Muslims get turned into the bad kind, but I wish the rest of the Muslim world would look to Turkey as a role model, not Hezbullah. That's not to say Turkey is perfect, by any means; the country has plenty of flaws. But they don't seem to be exporting or funding or allying with any of the extremist Muslims, and they've generally been a pretty good ally to the west. And they're more or less a democracy even.

[Myth1184]

i thought racist remarks aren't allowed, are they?
i think this thread will be removed

maybe you should find out what someones reason for attacking is
america and britain still haven't given a truthful reason for attacking iraq yet, i see you don't call them terrorists

There is nothing Racist in those remarks, but truth

It is taught to all muslim children that Israel is the enemy

[thcbongman]

There is nothing intentionally racist about this thread; although, it is meant to clearly show the accepted differences between the two races. Anyone who shuns the real and present differences here is in complete denial of reality. I pose this from a scholarly and analytical point of view. Please accept it as such.

You are only showing that jews are smarter than muslims, and using selected facts. It's obvious to most here what your agenda is here, considering your point of view reflects only what occurred in the last century. I don't know why you consider the nobel peace prize to be something equvalent of a race competition, I thought it was about an individual's accomplishments in that field. Guess I was mistaken.

You are also comparing what were historically migrant members of a religion who were prosecuted and assimilated through many cultures, and members of a religion which is culturally old-fashion. People who migrated less until the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. You followed it by saying polar opposites, and only showing jews in a positive light, and muslims in a negative light. Your facts are tailored to your bias point of view.

Does this mean the decorum of their behavior is justified? Absolutely not. The Middle East has behavior patterns that they held for centuries. Their treatment of women is horrible, and the man is typically more aggressive because they aren't freely allowed to interact with woman. But to latently say muslims aren't cultured?

You wouldn't know from the news that Beirut is a cultured and beautiful city. Many middle eastern cities are. They may not be as economically prosperous as the west, but your insinuation that muslims are just violent, jew-hating people is intellectually insulting.

You think that all muslims don't want to give their kids an education? Check out all the muslims students here. Not to mention this fact: American Muslims on average earn more than Cauasian Americans.

If I stated that since the Phineas Priesthood, Covenant Swords & Arms, and Timothy McVeigh are white conservatives, all conservatives commit domestic terrorism, I would sound like an ignorant jackass wouldn't I?