9/11 TRUTH

[slowthestone]

I'm finding it disheartening that so called theorists are getting the same sort of treatment as an atheist would deliver to a Jehovah witness.

If you can't fathom the scope of what could have occurred that day, why attack those that can?

If you do not believe other people's interpretations of the evidence, and lack of evidence at hand...say you don't believe and leave it at that.

Breukelen...his testimony is based on...what an anonymous architect said that day. Had the person said 'No way a fire could do that'...what then would be his position?

Theres bound to be a joke that occurs to me later this day....'How many architects does it take to change Breukelen's mind?' sort of haha.

Another bit thats worthy of noting...'theorists' seem to have to defend their take on the matter...and are asked things like...'Where's your evidence?'

Thats a fair question...so I'd ask anyone not able and or wanting to not believe the likeliness of government involvement in distorting and manipulating physical evidence...where's your proof that someone hasn't perpetrated a cover-up?

[jamstigator]

You can't prove a negative. That's why there are still religions in the world: no one can disprove what the religions are based on, and those who are members don't care to prove the positive, or (most likely) can't.

So, no one can prove there *wasn't* a coverup. If there was, and someone wants us to believe that, then it's up to them to prove the positive, that there was a coverup, and provide credible evidence of such. I haven't seen any credible evidence of a coverup, personally. Sure, there's a bunch of whackos saying stuff, but that's pretty much always true.

And if there was a coverup, think how huge a conspiracy it would have to be. Conspiracies, even small ones, have problems staying secret. A conspiracy on the scale it would have to be for these theories to be true -- it's just not conceivable that it could remain secret. I mean, you'd have to have had thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people, involved in it, and have none of them willing to talk, even with huge financial incentive to do so (book deals, movie rights, etc). Not plausible.

[Breukelen advocaat]

I'm finding it disheartening that so called theorists are getting the same sort of treatment as an atheist would deliver to a Jehovah witness.
Why limit to the Witnesses? All Religion is bunk.
If you can't fathom the scope of what could have occurred that day, why attack those that can?
The "conspiracy" is not impossible to fathom as existing, but in this case it was terrorists.
If you do not believe other people's interpretations of the evidence, and lack of evidence at hand...say you don't believe and leave it at that.
You could do the same thing, for that matter.
Breukelen...his testimony is based on...what an anonymous architect said that day. Had the person said 'No way a fire could do that'...what then would be his position?
I just found the man's prediction to be amazingly accurate, and it was before the fact. If he had said "If the Towers fall, it wasn't from the planes, it was bombs!", I can honestly say that I would say so. Whether I would have believed it is impossible to say. I've mentioned before that I worked in the Trade Centers, long before 9/11, and felt them sway, while riding the elevators past the halfway point, from wind alone. It didn't create much confidence in the stability had such an attack occurred, but we knew it wouldn't fall from winds alone.

Theres bound to be a joke that occurs to me later this day....'How many architects does it take to change Breukelen's mind?' sort of haha.
I believe that the terrorists did it. I've known that the Muslims are against freedom and democracy for decades, and their fanatical lunatic fringe is committed to destroying all remnants of these privledges and rights.

Another bit thats worthy of noting...'theorists' seem to have to defend their take on the matter...and are asked things like...'Where's your evidence?'
Thats a fair question...so I'd ask anyone not able and or wanting to not believe the likeliness of government involvement in distorting and manipulating physical evidence...where's your proof that someone hasn't perpetrated a cover-up?

Again, the burden of proof in on the believer. Of the many people that I know and talk to every day that live and work in lower Manhattan, nobody has ever expressed anything even close to the theories that are coming from areas like Utah, Texas, California, and other places far removed from the scene of the attack.
There are people, though, that have addressed these issues:
http://us.geocities.com/debunking911/index.htm

[Breukelen advocaat]

This is the debunking link - apparently it was changed.
Debunking 9/11, Exploding the myths:
http://www.debunking911.com/

The facts will always defeat fiction, but some people will always believe the fairy tales.:thumbsup:

[Oneironaut]

As evidence mounts, the consensus grows.

So...what's the consensus?

No...what I think is that its awfully inconsistent with the investigation policies and practices of the principal agencies involved would allow evidence be destroyed. As in...sent to the scrap yard asap.

So, the reason there's no good evidence is that they destroyed the evidence. Ah yes, the perfect government conspiracy never fails to cover all its tracks because they are so perfectly competent at everything...

Write your congressional representitive. Ask those same exact questions.

I don't really care much for congressional representatives, and their opinions aren't really the authority to go to when investigating this kind of crime. Go ask some firemen or architectural engineers what happened to those buildings.

The greatest lump of evidence to this patriot is the overwhelming LACK of physical evidence.

Patriot? Who's a patriot? Me? I'm a vehement anti-nationalist...

As well as, things that have been covered-up, lied about (helps to have a bullshit detector).

Sure, a healthy attitude of skepticism is a good thing. But you have to be careful to apply it equally to both sides.

ie...Bush has a pattern of defending his actions with his idealogic rhetoric. To the point of several times him losing his controlled demeanor for all to see. The man never defends anything he did that day. More to the point...he doesn't go anywhere near the topic.

Yeah, Bush is a moron with a crazy ideology. That doesn't mean he orchestrated 9/11. And if he started debating all kinds of stupid details about what he did that day, it wouldn't convince the conspiracy theorists. It would only give them more data to find anomalies in, and more importantly, would give them more credibility than they deserve. Continuing to debate with the conspiracy theorists only fosters the idea that there's something to the conspiracy claims. It would be like Bush providing evidence that he isn't a reptilian alien in order to disprove the nutcase who claims he is.

Not me. I've no interest in debunking the official anything. I just can't help but notice the glaring inconsistencies and the ensuing acute sense of 'official explanations' having been manipulated.

Glaring inconsistencies? I take it you've been reading the anomaly hunters. What are these inconsistencies?

There are videos and publications that counter those that believe otherwise. They however, are flimsy explanations at best.

Yeah, there are some people out there trying to debunk this stuff. But the conspiracy theorists have been churning it out by the assload. And what exactly is it that makes their explanations "flimsy"?

Again, this is where I point out the massive lack of physical evidence.

You've just proven my point. All the conspiracy theorists offer is negative evidence, or a lack of evidence as evidence of a conspiracy. There is a massive lack of physical evidence that the government was in on this.

The NTSB for example...every major aviation accident they investigate...the collect physical evidence, piece the plane back as best as can be done..and then house the evidence for future reference.

Flight 93 is nowhere to be found. And that is flat out...odd. They'll fish wreackage of the bottom of a body of water, keep it all in storage...inquiring about flight 93 though leads to dead ends.

I think we can both agree that Flight 93 was no normal plane crash. This was a major act of international terrorism, where issues of national security are the government's top priority. You don't seriously expect them to make all the evidence public, do you? Nevertheless, you still haven't proven anything, or shown me any of these "glaring inconsistencies" you speak of. All you're basically saying is "their behavior looks a bit fishy, and there are some anomalies I can't readily explain, therefore they probably did it".

[Krogith]

#1 of course the towers swayed in the wind there made that way. There are Huge STEEL core collems and a fish net type network of cross beams of steel. It's made to flex like a tree.

#2 Take that same STEEL cross beam net-work and light a fire under it for 2 hours a bunch of jet fule ( wich was burned up with in 10 min's tops) and a bunch of office stuff. See if your stuiped little fire ( wich was obesiously Cooled off because there are video's and photos of people standing in the plane holes Waveing) Burns that STEEL net-work down. LOOK AT THE FACTS

#3 How come the goverment can;t even get a model nor a computer model to fall the same way the WTC towers fell? Because they even fell in a unsciencetific way, wich would only occure due to inploshion. The models didn't even collapse.

[Aaron385]

Wow krogith.. are you an engineer? Because I am.. and Ive blown up my fare share of buildings too (Iraq/afganistan).. and I have been to ground zero and I was in NY when the planes hit the towers...

Its not a conspiracy people.. there really are terrorists and people that hate americans just because. GO THERE... to the big whole in the ground.. and if you still dont believe it just tell the guy next to you looking down into ground zero and he will gladdly give you a push.

[BizzyStick]

#2 Take that same STEEL cross beam net-work and light a fire under it for 2 hours a bunch of jet fule ( wich was burned up with in 10 min's tops) and a bunch of office stuff. See if your stuiped little fire ( wich was obesiously Cooled off because there are video's and photos of people standing in the plane holes Waveing) Burns that STEEL net-work down. LOOK AT THE FACTS

Yeah your probably right but the towers fell down in less than 1 hour.

[slowthestone]

So...what's the consensus?

A covering and manipulation of available personal accounts, hard evidence, as well as not all that could be made available to the public has been made available.

So, the reason there's no good evidence is that they destroyed the evidence. Ah yes, the perfect government conspiracy never fails to cover all its tracks because they are so perfectly competent at everything...

har

I don't really care much for congressional representatives, and their opinions aren't really the authority to go to when investigating this kind of crime. Go ask some firemen or architectural engineers what happened to those buildings.

I don't blame you there. However, it is just one of the many examples of a place where one could turn, that is as best as doing their own investigation as they can muster. Call the Airlines involved that day. Call any of the major cell network carriers in that region, ask them about that day. While you're at it, call smaller local airports that had people behind the wheel monitoring their own traffic what it is they recall about that day. Call the fire houses that responded that day. Maybe even find out for yourself standardized industry practices, such as...what sort of flight data recording device would be present on a United Airlines Boieng 757-222.

Patriot? Who's a patriot? Me? I'm a vehement anti-nationalist..

What sort of antinationalist are you? Moderate? Vehomently opposed to everything federalized?

Sure, a healthy attitude of skepticism is a good thing. But you have to be careful to apply it equally to both sides.

Indeedlydoo. There are, on both sides of this discussion, those that are easily swayed to agreeing with what others have determined...and merely echo the arguments of those that establish them. This is why I encourage people to mount there own fact finding investigation.

Don't just agree with others for sake of 'oh yeah! that does make it all clear!' type moments that people have. Get better learned on the things that went outside the norm by better learning the norm.

Yeah, Bush is a moron with a crazy ideology. That doesn't mean he orchestrated 9/11.

Okay...I could LMAO at the notion of GW orchestrating anything other than the time he spends believing himself a tool of the almighty. I do though believe he may have...agreed with how to achieve a particular terror driven adgenda.

And if he started debating all kinds of stupid details about what he did that day, it wouldn't convince the conspiracy theorists. It would only give them more data to find anomalies in, and more importantly, would give them more credibility than they deserve. Continuing to debate with the conspiracy theorists only fosters the idea that there's something to the conspiracy claims. It would be like Bush providing evidence that he isn't a reptilian alien in order to disprove the nutcase who claims he is.

If one were to nevermind his office, and read him the way you would any other person...the man is never consistent along a story-line. He stutters and trips...can not keep the lie consistent...then practices avoidance with empty rhetoric, addressing nothing at all. The man's inability to deal with apprehension is writen all over his face, posture, body language. Watch his eyes if you're the sort that watches eyes for subtle indicators.

Glaring inconsistencies? I take it you've been reading the anomaly hunters. What are these inconsistencies?

I have watched various docustyle movies that are available to download. With arguments from either side of the 'what really happened that day?' debate. I have done the 'Hunt the Boeing' site. The sinking point for me though are my own recollections of what was going on with me that day that conflicts with those official releases weighed further with things I'm skilled with trade-wise regarding material specifications.

[attachment=o79144]

There is something entirely wrong with that picture.

I can go on and on about one inconsistency or another with you 1Iron, I won't though...you seem to me well rounded about having been in the discussion and reading of published materials from either side. So, you've either seen or read, and drew what you drew. Possibly missed something, and or just are ignorant or lacking exposure to some particular bit of info that would compell you to personally pursue it to its origins.

Yeah, there are some people out there trying to debunk this stuff. But the conspiracy theorists have been churning it out by the assload. And what exactly is it that makes their explanations "flimsy"?

The debunkers have debunkers ffs in this matter eh. It's worked its way into a veritable 'This is why we are right and they are wrong.' styled back and forth between the degreed professionals, industry professionals, accredited, qualified analysts and wagon jumpers in and around the debate of what occured that day that is known by an individual...vs what they don't know about what occured that day and what they should be concluding through other's interpretations.

You've just proven my point. All the conspiracy theorists offer is negative evidence, or a lack of evidence as evidence of a conspiracy. There is a massive lack of physical evidence that the government was in on this.

meh...I proved nada...this is the place where I encourage others to conduct their own digging for information, facts, truthes and things they otherwise were not aware of. I myself am abundantly open to evidence that would settle the matter and show me conclusively that a unspecified domestic group of individuals did not tamper with the things after the fact.

I think we can both agree that Flight 93 was no normal plane crash. This was a major act of international terrorism, where issues of national security are the government's top priority. You don't seriously expect them to make all the evidence public, do you?

I do expect it. Especially if it is a crucial or insightful thing.

Nevertheless, you still haven't proven anything, or shown me any of these "glaring inconsistencies" you speak of. All you're basically saying is "their behavior looks a bit fishy, and there are some anomalies I can't readily explain, therefore they probably did it".

Yep...but then...I've no want to prove anything. All I do is state my case here and there and encourage people to keep looking. I'm not much for thinking for others...just me ownself.

[Marlboroman]

Wow krogith.. are you an engineer? Because I am.. and Ive blown up my fare share of buildings too (Iraq/afganistan).. and I have been to ground zero and I was in NY when the planes hit the towers...

Its not a conspiracy people.. there really are terrorists and people that hate americans just because. GO THERE... to the big whole in the ground.. and if you still dont believe it just tell the guy next to you looking down into ground zero and he will gladdly give you a push.

WOW for an engineer thats been to atleast 2 different countries, and being at ground zero, you certainly speak elequently, and thoughtfull. Share some of your experiences with us about blowing up buildings in Iraq and Afganistan,Whats it look like when you blow up a building? I bet its pretty surreal. tell us what you did when the planes hit. How did you get out of the city?

As an engineer you would know that going to Ground Zero and looking into the hole does no more to prove either story than rideing the subway.

There isnt enough evidence to either prove false or negative either story about 9/11, thats just the reality of the situation. The majority of the steel was loaded up and sent away along with any evidence. I do remember tho that DNA testing went on for years looking for victims, so I'm guessing that the smaller debrie was sifted thru, but thats only a guess.

Any real evidence that would prove any conspiracy theory is long gone, such as, the molten steel at the bottom of the complex that burned for weeks.

That leaves an official story that has inconsistancies, no matter who looks at it, we may not want to admit it to yourself, but I think deep down, we all have a lingering question about something.

I think it boils down to faith. Which is to believe in something that you cannot logically prove, altho logically it makes sense to me that there is something more to the WTC than meets the eye, I dont have faith in it, it cannot be proven.

At the same time, I dont have faith that the planes where knocked down by fire, this leaves me with the unsettling feeling of not knowing. Ya, its not that good of a feeling, but it is what it is.

I was in times square when the WTC got hit, from there I walked across the 59th St bridge into Queens. Walked down Northern Blvd down past Corona till I came across an Open Taxi and got a lift further out onto LI.

That night I went back into the city to help look for survivors, rode into the site on a Police Paddy wagon, me and a good friend of mine, dug for close to 30 hours.

I carried many half filled body bags, found personal articals of victims, the one that struck me the most was a brief case with a PBJ sandwihich and some LIPA bills, that thought still fucks with my head.

I was there, I dug in it, I smelt it, I came home with it in my clothes on my body and in my head, I live in NY, and I am not sure what happened that day.

Could it have been the gold at the bottom? sure it could have, people have been killed for less.

Could it have been a reason to start global tyrrany? Sure it could have, tyrrany has to start somewhere.

Could it have been Terrorists? Sure it could have, they do seem to hate us.

Could it have been fires that took the building down? sure, after all, fire is an element.

This topic has been hashed out time and time again, by me, by you, and you and you. Im pretty sure we will never know what happened that day, unless of course, it is a plan for global tyrrany and someone defeats it, the victor gets to write the history.

Peace.