Evolution or Creation

[Binzhoubum]

I think you are all wrong...

If you take a long look at why people form any beliefs in the first place you will see that it is done out of a certain fear. It's of no consequence whether or not you believe in God or evolution or that aliens created us because they are all wrong.

The only truth can come from the absence of beliefs. It is only in such a moment that truth can be found. :smokin:

[Binzhoubum]

either way...

its still fun to argue about. :smokin:

[OnionsOfLove]

I have a lot of fun coming in here and discussing things like this, so i apologize for a possible long post.

Ganjasaurusrex: interesting concepts. its funny how everything "evolves" as you put it, especially considering evolution can be described (as you have) as collected changes over time. In my belief, God and evolution are inseperable only because fate is an inarguable part of our existance. For example: the fact that you (reader) are reading this post right now is fate. Fate to what ends? No one knows, but it is fate nonetheless. You chose in the past to do something, and once you did it, it happened. There is no way to change what happened, only what will happen. And if evolution is to be considered in this way, then humans have indeed evolved almost to the point that we as a species are able to control our surroundings, to choose to make our fate a good one. Humans have the ability to see to it that the human race (and lifeforms as we know it) are perpetuated. Many people like to believe there is a god on earth that they can follow and trust in, but in my opinion the god of holy books (and his opposite: satan, etc) only serve to explain the concept of good and evil in a more metaphorical way (and thus slightly more understandable, as it is a rather abstract concept). The collective belief of all religions is that man must do good unto man. For what purpose? In an evolutionary sense, the only purpose doing good unto fellow man serves is to prolong the existance of life, which is arguably what allah and the christian god both want to do. (Funny that i use those two dieties as an example, kind of puts the "holy war for oil" into perspective.) Now, imagine that god and satan, as it has been said that they do, are battling for souls. Where would they be battling? In your head. Every time you do something "good" or "bad" you are swaying toward one side or the other. Thus we have the concept of dieties. They have always desired for humans to believe in them, and they choose, supposedly at random, not to let themselves be physically known to us. In short, the concept of a diety (in the current written religious sense) was, and is, just a device, crafted by man, to get human beings to get along together. But as can be learned from the game "telephone," knowledge that is passed down (and around) is tainted by biased people, lack of good memory, bad hearing, people who distort the truth, etc, etc. So it could indeed be possible that religious prophets actually had something to say, and that at one time it was a very easy thing to understand. But through translations and languages and fires and smudges and people who dont know what a certain word means, we arrive upon incredibly long pointless metaphorical books that are all trying to say the exact same thing: be nice to your fellow man. The ten commandments (i apologize for using mostly judo-christian references, im sure there are other such examples in other religions) are rules that everyone understands and knows, but they break them sometimes. Breaking these rules causes unrest among societies of man, and over a long enough time period, "evil" can become commonplace because of the amount of people in the world who can teach evil to other people. Evilness, in the sense im talking, applies almost specifically to selfishness. Anything that anyone does that causes discomfort in someone else should not happen. Everyone should always attempt to help everyone else out, always. If we were to live in such a society, one might call it paradise. No stealing, worrying, dirty politicians, etc, etc, etc... nothing except good times.

Has anyone ever noticed that societies and cultures around the world seem to be constantly liberalizing? Moving to a point at which everyone within the government (whom is serves) is happy because they have what they want? In terms of the black rights movement in the united states: at the beginning, the first jump was to become free as a people. Then to become free within society and culture. Now the american culture is questioning racial differences as a whole. Racist people are constantly made fun of on chapelle's show, and its funny because its true. Its funny because some people in the world actually believe that a retarded white person is different than a retarded mexican. But in reality, everyone in the world is a person who has their own memories, abilities, and aspirations. In a society where everyone's potential is realized because it is never held back by "evil", what isnt possible?

Just to clarify "evil":
a brother and sister are fighting because they got in an argument. in order to teach them "wrong" from "right" a parent chooses to threaten to hit them with a rolled up newspaper, or threaten them with time out, or yell at them as loud as possible. the brother and sister eventually stop fighting, but the behavior never goes away because the parents dont know how to possibly address it because no one has addressed it in their lives either! Its a never ending cycle of shit, breeding ignorance and inability throughout the human race.

in short, i believe in everything, because its all the exact same thing and no one chooses to realize that... man created beliefs and languages and etc etc and has been evolving to the point that we are at today, even right now. the other funny concept is time: time with respect to a human being is based on point of observation. i.e., a man who travels to each time zone each new hour does not experience 365 days a year nor 60 seconds a minute. He experiences right now, which is the only time there is in his world. Time for this man, in fact, is based on one thing: how long he has to do something. And that is then broken down into two categories: how long he has until he finishes whatever project, and how long he has before he dies. But there is also another concept of time to that man, and that is the concept of infinity. He knows that there was a time before him because his parents gave birth to him and they were alive longer than he has been. He also knows that there is a time after him because he fathers a child who will live on past him. And all of these people will die in their own times as well, but time will still go on. So this man must ask himself what it is that he wants to do with the time that he has on earth? this is the dilemma of man. many people choose to squabble over tones of bullshit until they die. some people choose to join peta and fight for less hormones in chickens who are being bred to die while they themselves are working in a coffee shop selling coffee made from beans in a foreign country that uses extremely cheap manual labor to harvest a crop. And you can ask those people: what is your real aim in life? To save already dead chickens that can be fed to hungry people, or to sell your coffee in your starbucks outfit that was picked by the hand of a hungry child? Though this example I cite might not happen all the time, it probably happened once. And the same concepts are applicable all across society, to everyone.

its been fun
cheers

[Ganjasaurusrex]

I have a lot of fun coming in here and discussing things like this, so i apologize for a possible long post.

Ganjasaurusrex: interesting concepts. its funny how everything "evolves" as you put it, especially considering evolution can be described (as you have) as collected changes over time. In my belief, God and evolution are inseperable only because fate is an inarguable part of our existance. For example: the fact that you (reader) are reading this post right now is fate. Fate to what ends? No one knows, but it is fate nonetheless. You chose in the past to do something, and once you did it, it happened. There is no way to change what happened, only what will happen. And if evolution is to be considered in this way, then humans have indeed evolved almost to the point that we as a species are able to control our surroundings, to choose to make our fate a good one. Humans have the ability to see to it that the human race (and lifeforms as we know it) are perpetuated. Many people like to believe there is a god on earth that they can follow and trust in, but in my opinion the god of holy books (and his opposite: satan, etc) only serve to explain the concept of good and evil in a more metaphorical way (and thus slightly more understandable, as it is a rather abstract concept). The collective belief of all religions is that man must do good unto man. For what purpose? In an evolutionary sense, the only purpose doing good unto fellow man serves is to prolong the existance of life, which is arguably what allah and the christian god both want to do. (Funny that i use those two dieties as an example, kind of puts the "holy war for oil" into perspective.) Now, imagine that god and satan, as it has been said that they do, are battling for souls. Where would they be battling? In your head. Every time you do something "good" or "bad" you are swaying toward one side or the other. Thus we have the concept of dieties. They have always desired for humans to believe in them, and they choose, supposedly at random, not to let themselves be physically known to us. In short, the concept of a diety (in the current written religious sense) was, and is, just a device, crafted by man, to get human beings to get along together. But as can be learned from the game "telephone," knowledge that is passed down (and around) is tainted by biased people, lack of good memory, bad hearing, people who distort the truth, etc, etc. So it could indeed be possible that religious prophets actually had something to say, and that at one time it was a very easy thing to understand. But through translations and languages and fires and smudges and people who dont know what a certain word means, we arrive upon incredibly long pointless metaphorical books that are all trying to say the exact same thing: be nice to your fellow man. The ten commandments (i apologize for using mostly judo-christian references, im sure there are other such examples in other religions) are rules that everyone understands and knows, but they break them sometimes. Breaking these rules causes unrest among societies of man, and over a long enough time period, "evil" can become commonplace because of the amount of people in the world who can teach evil to other people. Evilness, in the sense im talking, applies almost specifically to selfishness. Anything that anyone does that causes discomfort in someone else should not happen. Everyone should always attempt to help everyone else out, always. If we were to live in such a society, one might call it paradise. No stealing, worrying, dirty politicians, etc, etc, etc... nothing except good times.

Has anyone ever noticed that societies and cultures around the world seem to be constantly liberalizing? Moving to a point at which everyone within the government (whom is serves) is happy because they have what they want? In terms of the black rights movement in the united states: at the beginning, the first jump was to become free as a people. Then to become free within society and culture. Now the american culture is questioning racial differences as a whole. Racist people are constantly made fun of on chapelle's show, and its funny because its true. Its funny because some people in the world actually believe that a retarded white person is different than a retarded mexican. But in reality, everyone in the world is a person who has their own memories, abilities, and aspirations. In a society where everyone's potential is realized because it is never held back by "evil", what isnt possible?

Just to clarify "evil":
a brother and sister are fighting because they got in an argument. in order to teach them "wrong" from "right" a parent chooses to threaten to hit them with a rolled up newspaper, or threaten them with time out, or yell at them as loud as possible. the brother and sister eventually stop fighting, but the behavior never goes away because the parents dont know how to possibly address it because no one has addressed it in their lives either! Its a never ending cycle of shit, breeding ignorance and inability throughout the human race.

in short, i believe in everything, because its all the exact same thing and no one chooses to realize that... man created beliefs and languages and etc etc and has been evolving to the point that we are at today, even right now. the other funny concept is time: time with respect to a human being is based on point of observation. i.e., a man who travels to each time zone each new hour does not experience 365 days a year nor 60 seconds a minute. He experiences right now, which is the only time there is in his world. Time for this man, in fact, is based on one thing: how long he has to do something. And that is then broken down into two categories: how long he has until he finishes whatever project, and how long he has before he dies. But there is also another concept of time to that man, and that is the concept of infinity. He knows that there was a time before him because his parents gave birth to him and they were alive longer than he has been. He also knows that there is a time after him because he fathers a child who will live on past him. And all of these people will die in their own times as well, but time will still go on. So this man must ask himself what it is that he wants to do with the time that he has on earth? this is the dilemma of man. many people choose to squabble over tones of bullshit until they die. some people choose to join peta and fight for less hormones in chickens who are being bred to die while they themselves are working in a coffee shop selling coffee made from beans in a foreign country that uses extremely cheap manual labor to harvest a crop. And you can ask those people: what is your real aim in life? To save already dead chickens that can be fed to hungry people, or to sell your coffee in your starbucks outfit that was picked by the hand of a hungry child? Though this example I cite might not happen all the time, it probably happened once. And the same concepts are applicable all across society, to everyone.

its been fun
cheers

Onions,

Good read.

In fact I read it twice.

Have a good one.

[Hamlet]

"Actually Stephen Hawking had an excellent theory on how the original matter came into existence. I don't feel like going into detail right now, but you have to first bring in to question the nature of reality, space-time, and actaully not-so-clear distinction between "Something" and "nothing". which are not as separate as one might think."

I haven't read Hawkings take on it but this is where reality gets to be a real mind-bender, isn't it? --that our Universe is a bubble of existence in 'non-existence''; and outside of that is absolutely nothing, not even empty space.

Anyway, as far as Creationism vs. Evolution there really doesn't need to be a battle of the concepts here. Anyone who's read the Old Testament knows the Bible doesn't say the world is only ten thousand years old. The churches came up with that on their own by counting back on the 'begats'. A quick cruise through Genesis and you realize there are a lot of unanswered questions. -like who were the people outside of the garden whom Cain was afraid would kill him? (wait a minute! there were only three people on earth at the time!) Any answers to these questions came from some preacher/theologian and not the Bible. (so all you Baptists out there can assume it came from a Catholic and can disregard it...lol)
So evolution could easily be incorporated into theology just like the fact that the world is round and not being the unmoving center of the Universe was. That was a hard one to swallow at one time. Remember Galelio almost getting burned at the stake for saying so? There he was with his telescope in front of a bunch of preachers saying 'look! I can prove it. Just look through the telescope." The answer was 'we will not look through the telescope and you WILL retract your statements or you WILL be burnt alive for your heresy." (<the churches would still be doing this if they could get away with it)
And since there's no proof an 'intelligent design' didn't start it all in motion anyway, someone dedicated to science shouldn't have any problems believing in a Creator/Designer if they want to. (well, there would be dogmatic abuse from his 'colleagues'-but most of them are too chickenshit to think outside the box anyway)

What the issue really boils down to is the separation of Church and State. The Church (churches) absolutely cannot stand it that they don't hold the reins on government and education. (I won't get into Bush)
This was the greatest thing Jefferson and our founding fathers did for this country, and no matter what religion you're affliated with, you should be thanking the deity of your choice they did it. How would all you Baptists out there like it if the Catholics/Mormons were calling the shots? (or vica versa)?

Really, Jerry Faldwell and the boys are picking a fight that they don't want to win. And anyone fighting their cause is playing the pawn of these sleezeball powerbrokers when they think they're just defending their faith. Wouldn't things be great if people chose to think for themselves instead of letting Rush Limbaugh, or some other toad looking for power/prestige do it for them?

[LordSmaug]

Creation. Evolution doesn't stand up to much scientific scrutiny. Especially when you dismantle evolutioary icons. And the Cambrian Explosion just skull fucks the entire idea of evolution. -if you don't know what the cambrian explosion is, it's a whole shit load of animals popping into existence at around the same time fully developed with absolutely nothing leading up to their current form.-

[braddog10]

.
.
.
You guys........sweet onion, Shelbay....... are all awesome. I so enjoy each and every one of you. Interesting, point you raised, Ham. I was just thinking the other day about cain. In fact the Lord set up communities of refuge, for people whom society wanted to kill, though their deeds would be considered evil even by Him. He still loved Cain...nevertheless.

Ham....the population as the 2nd generation? yeah, interesting too, some of it I guess, is need to know.. Maybe the technical editors missed that one.

Well my season has begun, I'll be in a 4 to 5 month work marithon. I'll miss all of you.

I'll be back occasionally.

It was foolish for me to put the brakes on, mareejr's thread. Keep an eye on it. feedback is needed. Don't forget the poll in the sexual forum.

email me [email protected]

[graymatter]

Evolution created, art, god, warfare, and the tiny hairs that grow in weird places as we age...

[Binzhoubum]

I have a lot of fun coming in here and discussing things like this, so i apologize for a possible long post.

Ganjasaurusrex: interesting concepts. its funny how everything "evolves" as you put it, especially considering evolution can be described (as you have) as collected changes over time. In my belief, God and evolution are inseperable only because fate is an inarguable part of our existance. For example: the fact that you (reader) are reading this post right now is fate. Fate to what ends? No one knows, but it is fate nonetheless. You chose in the past to do something, and once you did it, it happened. There is no way to change what happened, only what will happen. And if evolution is to be considered in this way, then humans have indeed evolved almost to the point that we as a species are able to control our surroundings, to choose to make our fate a good one. Humans have the ability to see to it that the human race (and lifeforms as we know it) are perpetuated. Many people like to believe there is a god on earth that they can follow and trust in, but in my opinion the god of holy books (and his opposite: satan, etc) only serve to explain the concept of good and evil in a more metaphorical way (and thus slightly more understandable, as it is a rather abstract concept). The collective belief of all religions is that man must do good unto man. For what purpose? In an evolutionary sense, the only purpose doing good unto fellow man serves is to prolong the existance of life, which is arguably what allah and the christian god both want to do. (Funny that i use those two dieties as an example, kind of puts the "holy war for oil" into perspective.) Now, imagine that god and satan, as it has been said that they do, are battling for souls. Where would they be battling? In your head. Every time you do something "good" or "bad" you are swaying toward one side or the other. Thus we have the concept of dieties. They have always desired for humans to believe in them, and they choose, supposedly at random, not to let themselves be physically known to us. In short, the concept of a diety (in the current written religious sense) was, and is, just a device, crafted by man, to get human beings to get along together. But as can be learned from the game "telephone," knowledge that is passed down (and around) is tainted by biased people, lack of good memory, bad hearing, people who distort the truth, etc, etc. So it could indeed be possible that religious prophets actually had something to say, and that at one time it was a very easy thing to understand. But through translations and languages and fires and smudges and people who dont know what a certain word means, we arrive upon incredibly long pointless metaphorical books that are all trying to say the exact same thing: be nice to your fellow man. The ten commandments (i apologize for using mostly judo-christian references, im sure there are other such examples in other religions) are rules that everyone understands and knows, but they break them sometimes. Breaking these rules causes unrest among societies of man, and over a long enough time period, "evil" can become commonplace because of the amount of people in the world who can teach evil to other people. Evilness, in the sense im talking, applies almost specifically to selfishness. Anything that anyone does that causes discomfort in someone else should not happen. Everyone should always attempt to help everyone else out, always. If we were to live in such a society, one might call it paradise. No stealing, worrying, dirty politicians, etc, etc, etc... nothing except good times.

Has anyone ever noticed that societies and cultures around the world seem to be constantly liberalizing? Moving to a point at which everyone within the government (whom is serves) is happy because they have what they want? In terms of the black rights movement in the united states: at the beginning, the first jump was to become free as a people. Then to become free within society and culture. Now the american culture is questioning racial differences as a whole. Racist people are constantly made fun of on chapelle's show, and its funny because its true. Its funny because some people in the world actually believe that a retarded white person is different than a retarded mexican. But in reality, everyone in the world is a person who has their own memories, abilities, and aspirations. In a society where everyone's potential is realized because it is never held back by "evil", what isnt possible?

Just to clarify "evil":
a brother and sister are fighting because they got in an argument. in order to teach them "wrong" from "right" a parent chooses to threaten to hit them with a rolled up newspaper, or threaten them with time out, or yell at them as loud as possible. the brother and sister eventually stop fighting, but the behavior never goes away because the parents dont know how to possibly address it because no one has addressed it in their lives either! Its a never ending cycle of shit, breeding ignorance and inability throughout the human race.

in short, i believe in everything, because its all the exact same thing and no one chooses to realize that... man created beliefs and languages and etc etc and has been evolving to the point that we are at today, even right now. the other funny concept is time: time with respect to a human being is based on point of observation. i.e., a man who travels to each time zone each new hour does not experience 365 days a year nor 60 seconds a minute. He experiences right now, which is the only time there is in his world. Time for this man, in fact, is based on one thing: how long he has to do something. And that is then broken down into two categories: how long he has until he finishes whatever project, and how long he has before he dies. But there is also another concept of time to that man, and that is the concept of infinity. He knows that there was a time before him because his parents gave birth to him and they were alive longer than he has been. He also knows that there is a time after him because he fathers a child who will live on past him. And all of these people will die in their own times as well, but time will still go on. So this man must ask himself what it is that he wants to do with the time that he has on earth? this is the dilemma of man. many people choose to squabble over tones of bullshit until they die. some people choose to join peta and fight for less hormones in chickens who are being bred to die while they themselves are working in a coffee shop selling coffee made from beans in a foreign country that uses extremely cheap manual labor to harvest a crop. And you can ask those people: what is your real aim in life? To save already dead chickens that can be fed to hungry people, or to sell your coffee in your starbucks outfit that was picked by the hand of a hungry child? Though this example I cite might not happen all the time, it probably happened once. And the same concepts are applicable all across society, to everyone.

its been fun
cheers

What is fate more than simple coincidence? :smokin:

[Lethal G]

My belief is that we could not just have been some "accident" of science, as some believe. I think there is a higher power who created this world that we all live in, as well as the rest of the universe. I'm just kind of in doubt of what religion really holds the truth to creation, which is why I keep an open mind. We may all be right, then again none of us may. This is why I've developed my own beliefs of who God really is.

On the issue of evolutuion, I do believe in it to an extent. My beliefs here reside more in terms of changes over time. We have definitely evolved over the billions of years humans have lived here on earth (as well as many other animals).