Meet Your Meat

[GHoSToKeR]

First of all, NightProwler. I've been a vegetarian for a year or so and trust me, i'm not skinny yet! +lol+

Edgar, awesome post.

TonyD, as ermitonto has stated before, people aren't meant to do anything except eat, sleep, shit, and fuck. It is not human instinct to brutally murder thousands of innocent, defenceless animals every day.

beachguy, again your arguments are not making sense. And i'm comparing animals to Jewish people, you idiot. I was making the comparison to highlight the obsurdity of your previous statement. But, people do need to stop thinking that one form of life (for example, humans) is superior to any other form of life (animals).

And tell me.. how the fuck can vegetarianism end humanity? You're starting to sound like a Republican.

[death of sXe]

hOW MUch Protein does a salad have?

SXE's death:
"Plus we dont have to worry about cancer"

Obviously, you're missing the point of Cancer.

really, whats the point of cancer?

as for your "argument" about us not getting proper protein..time to show you how wrong you are yet again. this is tooo easy.

Recommended percentage of daily calories to be derived from protein according to Food and Nutrition Board of the U.S.D.A.: 6%
Recommended percentage of daily calories to be derived from protein according to National Research Council: 8%
Percentage of calories as protein in wheat: 17%
Percentage of calories as protein in broccoli: 45%
Percentage of calories as protein in rice: 8%

wait for it...



....


..

.

PWNED

[GHoSToKeR]

beachguy, just stop, man. You're posts are either downright ridiculous or just don't make any sense at all. Do us all a favour and stop trying to justify something you probably don't even give a shit about.

[smokingskeleton]

i was gunna say something really good, but i cant be arsed to type it...

[Ousted]

I think it would be very exhausting being a vegetarian. It would be so hard to try to stay on top of not coming off like a hypocrite on a daily basis especially if your reasons for being a vegetarian or vegan are more on a moral basis. If its for enovironment reasons then you probably will have to be careful with everything you do environment-wise or people are gonna give you that look, that "you fucking hypocrite" look. Which may not matter to some people, but the pro's of eating carrots over steak aren't worth me being considered, and in fact 'being' a hypocrite. And I know I would be a hypocrite and judge myself as one, being a vegetarian wouldn't be worth that label from others or myself.

Also, it is not some established health fact like some seem to be arguing that eating vegetarian is good for you. Many physicians and medical leaders argue that the vegatarian/vegan lifestyle can be an unhealthy diet especially if you are not taking the vitamins you should be taking on that kind of diet plan, and believe their patients who have that kind of diet have more medical complaints than those with a more balanced diet.

Also, someone mentioned (I forget who and am too lazy to check since the thread is so long now) that we shouldn't see ourselves as superior to animals, so therefore shouldn't eat them. So if we're not superior to animals then wouldn't it be fair to say that animals aren't superior to plants? Using the same logic...Plants dont have a voice either and are living creatures which some have argued feel pain...

Sounding silly yet?

I may not consider myself as more important than others, but I am more important than plants and animals, and I feel that my desire to eat them gives them purpose they otherwise wouldn't have.

Animals are nummy nums. Especially cow. I love cow. Enjoy the pic.

[GHoSToKeR]

In your eyes you're more important, Ousted, but I don't think in general human's are any more important than any other living creature. I don't believe plants come in to the equation - they're not sentient beings. Humans are just lucky to have become the dominant species.. but that doesn't mean we're more important. More intelligent, maybe, but not more important. If intelligence is a sign of importance than, like Edgar said, why not eat retarded kids? If they're less important than why the fuck not?

Sounding silly yet?

Being a vegetarian is simply a lifestyle choice. I choose not to contribute to the slaughter and torture of animals for meat. You can make whatever claim you want about animals dying as a result of farming vegetables, but I can't help that.

But I can make a difference, or even just a statement, by doing the least I can do, which is to not eat meat.

[Ousted]

In your eyes you're more important, Ousted,

In society's as well. Animals dont have the ability to determine who or what is important.

but I don't think in general human's are any more important than any other living creature.

You're right, our right to live is no more important than any other living creatures right in the grand scheme of things, though who would make that determination, really? But as far as my finding myself, my species, and my appetite as being more important than some animals, I sure as heck do.

I don't believe plants come in to the equation - they're not sentient beings.

Some argue otherwise, but who makes the distinction? And what makes your distinction the correct one?

Humans are just lucky to have become the dominant species..
but that doesn't mean we're more important.

Actually, we have come this far because we believe ourselves to be more important.

If intelligence is a sign of importance than, like Edgar said, why not eat retarded kids? If they're less important than why the fuck not?

Shit is less important than me, but you dont see me eating shit.

Sounding silly yet?

A little bit, but hey.

eing a vegetarian is simply a lifestyle choice. I choose not to contribute to the slaughter and torture of animals for meat. You can make whatever claim you want about animals dying as a result of farming vegetables, but I can't help that.

You know there are places that are humane that raise animals for slaughter that there sole purpose is to provide an alternative to those places that cram animals in tight confined spaces, and do god knows what to them during their life to get their meat to ya. More expensive meat, but probably choosing to eat animals raised in those kinds of humane conditions would support your cause more than not eating meat altogether.

But I can make a difference, or even just a statement, by doing the least I can do, which is to not eat meat.

I think its great that you really believe in this and want to make a difference. I just think you would make more of a difference supporting organizations that concetrate soley on the humane treatment of animals, then washing your hands of it entirely, and making yourself miserable by eliminating a very important and essential part of your diet. And whether you believe it or not, you are a carnivore, not an herbivore, even if you never eat meat again. Those kinds of places need passionate people like you to support them. Its hard to compete with the slaughterhouses that get consumers very affordable meat at a high price to the animals which, frankly as a whole, people really arent that concerned over.

[Edgar]

I think it would be very exhausting being a vegetarian. It would be so hard to try to stay on top of not coming off like a hypocrite on a daily basis especially if your reasons for being a vegetarian or vegan are more on a moral basis. If its for enovironment reasons then you probably will have to be careful with everything you do environment-wise or people are gonna give you that look, that "you fucking hypocrite" look. Which may not matter to some people, but the pro's of eating carrots over steak aren't worth me being considered, and in fact 'being' a hypocrite. And I know I would be a hypocrite and judge myself as one, being a vegetarian wouldn't be worth that label from others or myself.

Also, it is not some established health fact like some seem to be arguing that eating vegetarian is good for you. Many physicians and medical leaders argue that the vegatarian/vegan lifestyle can be an unhealthy diet especially if you are not taking the vitamins you should be taking on that kind of diet plan, and believe their patients who have that kind of diet have more medical complaints than those with a more balanced diet.

Also, someone mentioned (I forget who and am too lazy to check since the thread is so long now) that we shouldn't see ourselves as superior to animals, so therefore shouldn't eat them. So if we're not superior to animals then wouldn't it be fair to say that animals aren't superior to plants? Using the same logic...Plants dont have a voice either and are living creatures which some have argued feel pain...

Sounding silly yet?

I may not consider myself as more important than others, but I am more important than plants and animals, and I feel that my desire to eat them gives them purpose they otherwise wouldn't have.

Animals are nummy nums. Especially cow. I love cow. Enjoy the pic.

Look, I know animals can suffer and I dont know that about plants. Besides, the point is for me, just this; to reduce the amount of suffering that occurs in the world and that goal is easily accomplished even if one is occasionally a hypocrite.

Do what you want, but saying you woudn't want to be a vegetarian because it's hard, or because you really, really like meat, or because you dont want to be seen as a hypocrite if you occasionally eat meat, well, that doesn't seem very moral to me. You'd have to first shrug off the suffering like it was nothing. Say, Oh it's not happening to me or my kind, so why should i care? If you were to truly rationalize the situation, you'd see plain as day that you contribute in a big way to the suffering of other sentient beings and that it would be a simple thing to cut down on the amount of suffering you contribute to. I think you should care more. I think I should care more, but unfortunately i'm becoming more and more desensitized.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. (paraphrased)

Oh and I'd be willing to bet that something like 90 percent or more people on this earth are hypocrites in one way or another, whether they know it or not.

By the way eating meat is not necessary in this day in age for the likes of us, all that is needed can be supplemented.

And guess what? I'm a hypocrite! I eat meat. I know it's wrong, and i still do it. I've cut down, and i was a vegetarian for about 12 years, but i still eat meat on occasion.

[GHoSToKeR]

In society's as well. Animals dont have the ability to determine who or what is important.

Exactly. Humans have determinded that humans are the most important race. Funny that. Do you really think that humans as a whole would ever think anything different? It's the same concept as GW Bush deciding that America is the only nation stable enough to have nuclear weapons...

You're right, our right to live is no more important than any other living creatures right in the grand scheme of things, though who would make that determination, really? But as far as my finding myself, my species, and my appetite as being more important than some animals, I sure as heck do.

That's fair enough.. but you know the suffering that these animals go through. surely you can change your diet, just as I and many others have, to help stop this? It's not much of a sacrifice.. yet again, if you don't give a shit then I guess it is. That's all it comes down to at the end of the day; giving a shit or not giving a shit.

Some argue otherwise, but who makes the distinction? And what makes your distinction the correct one?

I don't know.. but like Edgar said I know for a fact that animals suffer, where as I don't know whether plants suffer or not, and as far as i'm aware they don't. That's the only distinction I can make.

Actually, we have come this far because we believe ourselves to be more important.

How so?

Shit is less important than me, but you dont see me eating shit.

So, even if animals are less important, why is it okay to treat them as we do? To murder them because we can't be assed to change our diet..

A little bit, but hey.

Hey, we're all a little bit silly sometimes..

You know there are places that are humane that raise animals for slaughter that there sole purpose is to provide an alternative to those places that cram animals in tight confined spaces, and do god knows what to them during their life to get their meat to ya. More expensive meat, but probably choosing to eat animals raised in those kinds of humane conditions would support your cause more than not eating meat altogether.

I don't agree. I don't believe that humans should be killing other animals. We make the claim that it's okay because we're more important than them, more intelligent, more advanced. But people also say that it's okay to eat animals because we're naturally carnivores and other animals eat meat.

So which is it? Are we better than animals and therefore capable of showing compassion and sympathy for creatures who are defenceless against us, or are we animals ourselves? If so then we aren't any more important, just more advanced.

I think its great that you really believe in this and want to make a difference. I just think you would make more of a difference supporting organizations that concetrate soley on the humane treatment of animals, then washing your hands of it entirely, and making yourself miserable by eliminating a very important and essential part of your diet. And whether you believe it or not, you are a carnivore, not an herbivore, even if you never eat meat again. Those kinds of places need passionate people like you to support them. Its hard to compete with the slaughterhouses that get consumers very affordable meat at a high price to the animals which, frankly as a whole, people really arent that concerned over.

I'm not miserable. What makes you think that? Cutting meat out of my diet was hard because humans are lazy and we grow accustomed to things pretty easily, but since then i've never felt healthier (apart from my health problems at the moment.. +lol+ but that's unrelated). I don't see how it would help if I started eating meat again? How am I not helping animals to stop being killed? And how would eating animals again help?

[Ousted]

Do what you want, but saying you woudn't want to be a vegetarian because it's hard, or because you really, really like meat, or because you dont want to be seen as a hypocrite if you occasionally eat meat, well, that doesn't seem very moral to me.

Its not a moral decision for me. Its one for you. And I didnt say that you would be seen as a hypocrite for occassionally indulging, you will be seen as a hypocrite for anything and everything that could be possibly associated with animal cruelty, and then held accountable for that because you have made your decision a moral one, and therefore put your morality on display and made something that isnt generally a moral decision for most, something thats moral. Which, coincidentally, you have also made those that dont agree with your not eating meat logic as beings that are immoral. People dont like to be labeled as immoral, especially by vegetarians.

You'd have to first shrug off the suffering like it was nothing. Say, Oh it's not happening to me or my kind, so why should i care?

I guess we think differently. I think you humanize animals, whereas I see them as just animals who serve a purpose. Do I believe they feel physical pain? Sure. Do I believe they feel betrayed, disappointed, taken advantage of, abused or tortured? No.
Frankly, there are much more important issues I'll get worked up about before I start worrying about some animals suffering or whether or not animals have emotional feelings similar to those of humans.

If you were to truly rationalize the situation, you'd see plain as day that you contribute in a big way to the suffering of other sentient beings and that it would be a simple thing to cut down on the amount of suffering you contribute to. I think you should care more. I think I should care more, but unfortunately i'm becoming more and more desensitized.

Well, at least you live in a country where you can make a choice to not eat meat based on moral objection.

Oh and I'd be willing to bet that something like 90 percent or more people on this earth are hypocrites in one way or another, whether they know it or not.

I completely agree.

And guess what? I'm a hypocrite! I eat meat. I know it's wrong, and i still do it. I've cut down, and i was a vegetarian for about 12 years, but i still eat meat on occasion.

Its not wrong to eat meat. Its been made wrong in your own head because you have leveled yourself with animals.

Exactly. Humans have determinded that humans are the most important race. Funny that. Do you really think that humans as a whole would ever think anything different?

Yes, we have determined we are more important than animals because we all know if it came down to it, we would sacrifice the animals to save ourselves. And you know we would, and that we should...if it really came down to it.

Im all for being humble and aware of man's arrogance, but there is definitely a line, and I will not ever agree that animals are of equal importance to myself or my fellow man.

That's fair enough.. but you know the suffering that these animals go through. surely you can change your diet, just as I and many others have, to help stop this? It's not much of a sacrifice.. yet again, if you don't give a shit then I guess it is. That's all it comes down to at the end of the day; giving a shit or not giving a shit.

Ive given up meat before because I thought eating vegetarian might help shed some pounds, and it was a miserable experience. I do choose my happiness over that of an animals. Sorry.

I don't know.. but like Edgar said I know for a fact that animals suffer, where as I don't know whether plants suffer or not, and as far as i'm aware they don't. That's the only distinction I can make.

You know animals feel and recognize pain, but you dont know if they suffer. Emotional pain is a far worse pain than that of just physical pain, and you cant make the call on whether animals do feel emotional suffering from physical pain or not. Emotional suffering like a feeling of being wronged, manipulated, degraded. Not just ouch! or no ouches, which given animals intelligence is probably all they can determine. I cant really make that distinction to others either, and Im not going to pretend to and then imply some moral objection based on my own distinctions.

ousted: Actually, we have come this far because we believe ourselves to be more important.

How so?

Survival of the fittest. We didnt get to this point because we exercised our ability to be empathetic. We never would have survived if we didnt outsmart creatures, and believe ourselves to be above them in every way.

So, even if animals are less important, why is it okay to treat them as we do? To murder them because we can't be assed to change our diet..

We can be asked to change our diet, but why be surprised when people dont? Again, vegetarians and alike have made this a moral issue for themselves, and its foolish to put your moralities on other people, and then be surprised that they aren't interested, or dont find it as important or serious as you do.

So which is it? Are we better than animals and therefore capable of showing compassion and sympathy for creatures who are defenceless against us, or are we animals ourselves? If so then we aren't any more important, just more advanced.

I dont really understand your question. I believe us to be more important than animals because we are capable of emotion and because I find our species to be superior to all others, and I also believe in eating animals.

I'm not miserable. What makes you think that?

Just an assumption, which was wrong of me to make, I admit.

Cutting meat out of my diet was hard because humans are lazy and we grow accustomed to things pretty easily, but since then i've never felt healthier (apart from my health problems at the moment.. +lol+ but that's unrelated). I don't see how it would help if I started eating meat again? How am I not helping animals to stop being killed? And how would eating animals again help?

Im sure you are helping to some very small degree, however insignificant of a difference you may be making Im sure your efforts are very much appreciated by those who feel the same as you do.