My mom is trying to convert me to Christianity!

[JunkYard]

She came over last night, and we dicussed what it meant to be a Christian, and how she thought I was wrong for denying Christianity.

I told her that I would gladly join the flock if she, or anyone else could convince me it was the right thing to do. I'm fairly open minded, and Christianity along with a number of other spiritual schools of thought have been on my mind for ages.

I have several Bibles, along with many other books on other types of spiritual beliefs. Kabbala, paganism, mormanism, etc...

None of them has convinced me to join up, and sign on the dotted line! I do want to talk about christianity, though. I realize that my mother wants the best for me, but I have reservations about her belief, and I hold some strong moral disagreement when it comes to the christian walk of life.

Anyone care to help out what my mother calls a "lost soul"?

Tell me about atonement, and the concept behind giving your sins to Jesus...

Any Christians up for some civil discussion, and/or debate? I promise that I'll keep an open mind.

I'm doing this for my mother, btw...

JunkYard Reviewed by JunkYard on 04-05-2006. My mom is trying to convert me to Christianity! She came over last night, and we dicussed what it meant to be a Christian, and how she thought I was wrong for denying Christianity. I told her that I would gladly join the flock if she, or anyone else could convince me it was the right thing to do. I'm fairly open minded, and Christianity along with a number of other spiritual schools of thought have been on my mind for ages. I have several Bibles, along with many other books on other types of spiritual beliefs. Kabbala, paganism, Rating: 5

[Nightwish]

Cannot help you with your Chrisitianity questions but I hope you find what you are searching for.

[Oneironaut]

I used to call myself a Christian when I was a child, mostly because my parents said we were a Christian family, but when I actually started looking at the Bible I decided I just couldn't associate myself with a religion based on that book.

For instance, in the New Testament we are told not to fight against tyrants:

Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

And that wives should unquestioningly submit to their husbands in all affairs:

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

And of course, Jesus also believed in the eternal damnation of hell. I can't fathom why any person who believes in love and forgiveness would support a "justice" system in which one is tortured infinitely for a finite number of evil deeds, with no chance of forgiveness ever. Bertrand Russell said it best in his speech Why I Am Not A Christian:

There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person that is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. Christ certainly as depicted in the Gospels did believe in everlasting punishment, and one does find repeatedly a vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching -- an attitude which is not uncommon with preachers, but which does somewhat detract from superlative excellence. You do not, for instance, find that attitude in Socrates. You find him quite bland and urbane toward the people who would not listen to him; and it is, to my mind, far more worthy of a sage to take that line than to take the line of indignation. You probably all remember the sorts of things that Socrates was saying when he was dying, and the sort of things that he generally did say to people who did not agree with him.

You will find that in the Gospels Christ said: "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell." That was said to people who did not like His preaching. It is not really to my mind quite the best tone, and there are a great many of these things about hell. There is, of course, the familiar text about the sin against the Holy Ghost: "Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world nor in the world to come." That text has caused an unspeakable amount of misery in the world, for all sorts of people have imagined that they have committed the sin against the Holy Ghost, and thought that it would not be forgiven them either in this world or in the world to come. I really do not think that a person with a proper degree of kindliness in his nature would have put fears and terrors of this sort into the world.

Then Christ says, "The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth"; and He goes on about the wailing and gnashing of teeth. It comes in one verse after another, and it is quite manifest to the reader that there is a certain pleasure in contemplating wailing and gnashing of teeth, or else it would not occur so often. Then you all, of course, remember about the sheep and the goats; how at the second coming He is going to divide the sheep from the goats, and He is going to say to the goats: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire." He continues: "And these shall go away into everlasting fire." Then He says again, "If thy hand offend thee, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched, where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched." He repeats that again and again also. I must say that I think all this doctrine, that hell-fire is a punishment for sin, is a doctrine of cruelty. It is a doctrine that put cruelty into the world, and gave the world generations of cruel torture; and the Christ of the Gospels, if you could take Him as his chroniclers represent Him, would certainly have to be considered partly responsible for that.

If you ask me, the Tao Te Ching makes a lot more sense.

[JunkYard]

I used to call myself a Christian when I was a child, mostly because my parents said we were a Christian family, but when I actually started looking at the Bible I decided I just couldn't associate myself with a religion based on that book.

For instance, in the New Testament we are told not to fight against tyrants:

And that wives should unquestioningly submit to their husbands in all affairs:

And of course, Jesus also believed in the eternal damnation of hell. I can't fathom why any person who believes in love and forgiveness would support a "justice" system in which one is tortured infinitely for a finite number of evil deeds, with no chance of forgiveness ever. Bertrand Russell said it best in his speech Why I Am Not A Christian:

If you ask me, the Tao Te Ching makes a lot more sense.

I call myself a 'reformed' Christian. Meaning, I once bought into the dogma, but resisted when I began to age, and develop the ability to question, while seeing through the twisted reality of what it's really about, and what it ultimately does to its followers.

Anyone understand the story of Cain and Able? Why God honored Ables sacrifice, while denying Cains? It just doesn't make sense, or even add up in the least little bit!

I wish a Christian would chime in, and explain some things for me...

Btw, my mother is one of those Christians that don't believe in a literal hell, so she's not damning me to eternal tourment just yet, lol!

[Pyramidsonmars]

She came over last night, and we dicussed what it meant to be a Christian, and how she thought I was wrong for denying Christianity.

I told her that I would gladly join the flock if she, or anyone else could convince me it was the right thing to do. I'm fairly open minded, and Christianity along with a number of other spiritual schools of thought have been on my mind for ages.

I have several Bibles, along with many other books on other types of spiritual beliefs. Kabbala, paganism, mormanism, etc...

None of them has convinced me to join up, and sign on the dotted line! I do want to talk about christianity, though. I realize that my mother wants the best for me, but I have reservations about her belief, and I hold some strong moral disagreement when it comes to the christian walk of life.

Anyone care to help out what my mother calls a "lost soul"?

Tell me about atonement, and the concept behind giving your sins to Jesus...

Any Christians up for some civil discussion, and/or debate? I promise that I'll keep an open mind.

I'm doing this for my mother, btw...

Firstly; what moral disagreements do you have with the christian walk of life?

Secondly; only God can truley convince you of anything in this sense. Pls don't ever "join a religion", but rather accept truth as it comes (and it may come in the form of a religion - personally it has for me) Now if you are concidering christianity, the best thing to do is to pray and ask God to show you if it's right or not. After that it's important that you read and educate yourself. In my case the more I read and prayed, the more I understood what the bible was actually talking about, and it's only ever grown since.

Btw, the christian "walk of life" is exactly what Christ did. In fact it's modeled after him, therefore read what Jesus did and who he was, not what "christians" are like or what the church does, because in my heart I know the church, as it now stands, does nothing but hide in its building. Christ was a healer; a medicine for the sick - the kindness and love in the world...and that's what he asks us to be.

The concept of Jesus forgivign sins is somethign I had a hard time with until I was more educated in the details. What christ was, was a new covenant from God for mankind. First God gave us the law (old testiment), not because he wanted us to follow it, but because he wanted us to see that we could never follow it by any human effort. God has called the law a "stumbling stone"; something for us to trip over, in order to show us what we were supposed to be like, and what is now (becuase of sin) unreachable by our human effort. As it now stands we are not perfect; we are born to SIN. Bottom line. Christ, who was concieved by the Holy Spirit, was God's child not becuase of direct lineage, but out of spiritual harmony. Jesus was God's child much like Adam was God's child before he fell into sin. That's why Jesus is called the second Adam. When Jesus lived, he lived as we were all intended to live: in direct contact and relationship with God. Jesus was God in a way we could comprehend. We can't comprehend God, and therefore none of us can Know Him, but we can comprehend Jesus because Jesus was a man. We now, through faith in Jesus, can know and understand God - we can hear God in our hearts.

God had to sacrifice Jesus because of sin. Once sin entered the world, death entered it. Jesus has told us that our sins are forgiven if we believe in God's sacrifice. And when we ask Jesus into our hearts, he becomes our heart and our mind (if we chose to let him of course). It is only because you have invited God to be inside you that you will be able to change, with God's help. Because of our sin, we must die, but because Jesus, who is God's son, died for us, God raised up again. If we believe this than Jesus is alive inside us; his Holy Spirit is now what we have, rather than our own spirit of sinful nature, God does the same for us: we may find hope in our faith, much like in the Old Testiment where it is written "Abraham believed in God, and so God credited it to him as righteous". God asks only for our faith if we are to know him.

sorry, this is a little sloppy but hopefully it gives you a clearer perseption of why Jesus's dying was so important.

[JunkYard]

Thank you! I will give a proper response when I have a little more time...

[Pyramidsonmars]

but when I actually started looking at the Bible I decided I just couldn't associate myself with a religion based on that book.

--on the contrary, I know the bible can be taken in the wrong way if you chose, but reading it honestly might paint a different picture for you.

For instance, in the New Testament we are told not to fight against tyrants:

Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

--God has put us where we are for reasons. In the case of masters and slaves what God is saying is that whatever your roll is, you should pursue it with all your heart.

Ephesians 6
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.


And that wives should unquestioningly submit to their husbands in all affairs:

--It also says that husbands should love their wives. That is naturally how a husband/wife would best get a long. I've experienced this; women need to be loved and to know they are loved. Men who are called by God to do something need to have patient wives who will not attempt to stop them.

Ephesians 5
Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the churchâ?? 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c] 32This is a profound mysteryâ??but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.


And of course, Jesus also believed in the eternal damnation of hell. I can't fathom why any person who believes in love and forgiveness would support a "justice" system in which one is tortured infinitely for a finite number of evil deeds, with no chance of forgiveness ever. Bertrand Russell said it best in his speech Why I Am Not A Christian:

--Romans
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitiesâ??his eternal power and divine natureâ??have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

The key is that last line. We who never accept God; who consistently say no when God knocks in our hearts, are without excuse. God has called every person here in some way; perhaps God has led you to a forum where his truth is being discussed, perhaps it's the missionairies that came last week. What I'm saying is that God, who has written himself into our hearts, is continually trying to call us, and the only way we could not hear Him is if we continually choose not to listen; the alterantive to God is essentailly what we know as "bad", therefore when we are doing good we are following God, but the bad thigns we do lead us down a path further and further away from God, so that when we die, God is no longer anywhere to be found.

--If you ask me, the Tao Te Ching makes a lot more sense.[/QUOTE]

I've noticed such a trend in eastern philosophy and religion. I believe this is because the western world itself has been crumbling morally; we realise this and blame the "belief system" that is most popular, but in actuallity I think it's a cultural flaw.

[mrdevious]

One thing you never actually told us Junkyard, do you believe in god?

personally though, I think you should have your relationship with god in your own way. If you don't agree with a lot of the teachings of christianity, then I would think it would be better to have the faith that's modeled after your own logic. I don't believe in god myself, but I think an omnipitant all-knowing being would be more concerned with the type of person you are, not the groups you join. after all, these groups (christianity, islam, etc) were designed as a guide to your relationship with god. Jesus never said you have to be a christian (as many people think), he said you should head his teachings. You don't need a title to learn from him.

[Pyramidsonmars]

I call myself a 'reformed' Christian. Meaning, I once bought into the dogma, but resisted when I began to age, and develop the ability to question, while seeing through the twisted reality of what it's really about, and what it ultimately does to its followers.

Anyone understand the story of Cain and Able? Why God honored Ables sacrifice, while denying Cains? It just doesn't make sense, or even add up in the least little bit!

I wish a Christian would chime in, and explain some things for me...

Btw, my mother is one of those Christians that don't believe in a literal hell, so she's not damning me to eternal tourment just yet, lol!

but if you read the story of Cain and Able, you will see this:

Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

In the old testiment God demands animal sacrifice for forgiveness of sins. Keeping in mind that during the time of Moses, who wrote genesis, this was already a well known fact. On reading genesis, one might not already know that, so that's just a little background info.

Needless to say God looks favorably on Able, because Able was, for some reason, able to hear God a little clearer; to know what God was really asking for. Cain brought him "some fruits of the soil", but Able brought "fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock". When Cain is angry God says "dude, if you had listened, you too would be looked at favorably"

[Pyramidsonmars]

but I think an omnipitant all-knowing being would be more concerned with the type of person you are, not the groups you join. after all, these groups (christianity, islam, etc) were designed as a guide to your relationship with god. Jesus never said you have to be a christian (as many people think), he said you should head his teachings. You don't need a title to learn from him.

You're very right. The reason I do call myself a "christian" is because I follow "christ". The label is what comes with the beliefs, not the other way around.

Jesus does, however, say that the only way to know God is to know Him