My mom is trying to convert me to Christianity!

[gramzzilla420]

wtf... this post sucks... clicked on this by mistake

[xblackdogx]

wtf... this post sucks... clicked on this by mistake

so you made it even suckier w/ a useless post.. (no offense)

Fake it... It'll make your mamma a happy woman, and she'll die knowing her son is going to meet her up in heaven. Hopefully not for a long time of course. That way if there isn't an afterlife she'll have a happier currentlife, and if there is some idealistic "christians only" reserved heaven, you're going to hell either way.

Nobody loses.

makes me happy i never told my ridiculously religous grandma that i'm agnostic

-good discussion though guys, always good to see different interpretations of being labeled a Christian

[P.E.N.G.U.I.N.]

I just believe that you should be nice to others just because it's nice. I don't believe in punishment for bad choices, but I wholly think that people should just respect one another for being their brothers and sisters, so to speak. I believe there is some force out there that binds everything and created us all. It could just be an infinite well of energy considering there is no such thing as matter (Yes, oneironaut, it's true. Matter is nothing but supercondensed energy. Any amount of matter can act like energy in a wave under the proper circumstances. Physics really is a great class to take)

[JunkYard]

Well Jesus calls those who believe in Him His "body". Further more, if you read Acts, or the letters from Paul, you will see an elaboration on this. Believers have something called the Holy Spirit. The bible tells us that this is literally a "person"; the "teacher" and "councelor", sent by Jesus when he returned to heaven. That is why after he leaves the second time he tells his diciples to go to Jerusalem and pray until they recieve the "gift" Jesus had promised them (the Holy Spirit). It is through Christ in us that we have the Holy Spirit, the teacher who guides our thoughts and helps us identify God, and whatever truth he gives us. Only someone with the Holy Spirit will really be able to see what God is telling us through scripture, and it is then up to us to share that with non-believers in a way that God provides us. Even these words I'm typing now are under the influence of the Holy Spirit, otherwise, in my darkness I would have no undrestanding. In Romans Paul writes about this:

Romans 1
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ??who is forever praised. Amen.

Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

What is being written here is about all of us; humanity as a whole. What sin is, by definition, is a seperation from God. Once you say something hurtfull to your sister, you've turned your back away from God; you've denied him. The second you say in your heart "this poor man doesn't get my money" you've said this same thing to God. We don't want to think about it, but you can't ever turn back towards God except by first asking Him for forgiveness. Are we allowed to do this? Maybe. I definetly think God coming and dying for us was a pretty good sign that we can. This is where Christ comes in.



Christians live in constant sacrifice (well yes, some do and some don't). It's called sacrifice only here on earth. In heaven it's simply the way of the land. Christ asks us that we constantly give to our brothers and sisters (not only those in our family, but outside as well) when they are in need. If we are giving, God is providing us an abundance, and endless source to give from. Asking Christ to forgive my sins is the first step; the second is to pursue the Kingdom of God; to be as best I can a "child of God" as God sees fit. There is no "weasling out" of responsibility, unless of course you would say that any time you say "sorry" to someone you wrong you're weasling out of them staying angry. God doesn't wish to be angry at us; he holds no grudge once we come to Him humbled and recieve the forgiveness he has given us. God is love, and one of the most powerfull forms of love is forgiveness; it is the backbone to re-establishing a relationship with our Creator that we are responsible for breaking.



We don't ever learn, because humanity has been making the same mistakes since it first begun. Feeling guilt is a sign that we have sinned, though some feel less guilt than others because they kill themselves in that way. Striving for perfection is impossible for our Flesh; it is born hating, and slandering and gossiping. Our souls can be perfect by being baptized; washed in the blood of Christ.

Revelations reads:
13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robesâ??who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.




Who's to say that you ever become better when you wrong someone? The only mistakes I've ever learned from are the big ones, and even then I often fall victim to the same temptations.



Watch the news - that is why God is so angry. My friend, what I really must stress is that you (and I, and everyone else) closely watch our own actions, and really pay attention to the intentions of our hearts when we do things. Do we do things for selfish reasons? Yes. Do we hate others in our hearts? Yes. Do we feed everyone who needs it? No, infact we take more for ourselves. All of us...you do it too my friend; so do I. God demanded blood as sacrifice. Death infact was the result of sin. And in the old testiment, when one had sinned (which happens more than they realised I'm sure) God asked them to sacrifice something in their place. When we live our sinful lives, we are already dead to God, who lives outside of time. Life is found in christ, and we are once again alive in God's eyes.



Accepting the thing I've done wrong, saying I'm sorry to God, and accepting the new conditions that God has laid down is taking responsibility. The new conditions are that God's child has died instead of me (but he didn't die! He was raised from the dead; he defeated death. That's the promise. We, as children of God, will not die either) and that I have to accept that, believe in it, and allow it to transform me. Having God's sacrifice Jesus LIVE inside me means I might have a hope of repenting. Because I, on my own, am futile in understanding even the things I do wrong.



Offering yourself means death. It means saying "Ok God, I continue to do the thigns I do, but I'll pay the penalty after". That penalty is death.



Because God was alive in Jesus, Jesus willingly did this. Jesus shed His blood as His sacrifice to God. Jesus did this out of pure love, because he wanted us to escape eternal death. There is no greater gift in the history of humanity. Jesus was raised from the dead; his blood baptizes the spirits of those who believe in him. Jesus is the Lamb, the sacrificial Lamb, out of God's love that is inside him, and because of this God has placed him at his right hand. This is the sacrifice that each and every person should be willing to give, but because Jesus was the first Child of God in the world, he did it.

On reading the bible, I've found parts that I couldn't explain, or even disagreed with. The problem isn't in those things themselves, but in my understanding of them. Fortunatly the bible ties itself together, and my doubts are often cleared up by other verses referring to those things in a different light. Reading and educating yourself is the only real way to understand what the bible is talking about in any given place. Some significant thigns won't become significant until you learn background information.

Anyway, God is alive right now in your intrest in Christianity. I will only ever tell you the facts - I'm not trying to convert you or tamper with your beliefs, but rather to offer my voice in any way that helps. God bless!

Thanks again for explaining your views, man. I appreciate your willingness to help.

Where to begin?

O.k, lets start with what you said about the holy spirit being a literal person. I couldn't disagree more. If you would, direct me to scripture that defines the holy spirit as being a person, and not "Spirit".

I believe it is supernatural just as guilt, and hate, and anger, and jealousy, and compassion are. (Spirits) Only, the holy spirit is love, and it convicts us through love showing us what is acceptable, and what is not. It doesn't speak to us, but by its own essence...love! It is up to each individual to embrace its presence.

I don't believe it guides us through scripture, to helps us discern its compexities. Case in point, the many differing Christian denominations. Is the holy spirit telling something different to different people? No, its not telling anything! It convicts by its own essence, and that essence is 'love'.

True 'comfort' comes from love. you see, love conquers fear, and Jesus clearly stated that the holy spirit was the 'comforter'. Again, it is up to each individual to embrace it. Love is a very powerful force, man. This is not a religious concept either. All can profit by accepting its power...religious, or not!

We can move to Jesus now, and what he did on the cross. (My views)

You see, Jesus said to "pick up your cross, and follow me". The cross is a metaphor for sin and responsibility, imo. He willingly died on the cross accepting, and bearing the burdens of man. But wait, he said "follow me". He set the example for what is required of all man. To bear your own cross, and willingly die, or to sacrifice your own life for the lives of others.

Not literaly, we all must die someday, and Jesus clearly showed us this on the cross. I'm talking about living not just for self, but for all mankind in attempt to create a better life experience for future generations. Through love this is possible, and Jesus showed us what it meant to love. He was our example, not our savior! He simply showed us the way, and gave us a clear sign of what it will take to save mankind.

He spoke in parables, and why would the message of the cross be any different? Personal salvation is for the selfish, and self serving, but sacrificing your life for the future lives of others, and bearing the burdens of man is what Jesus was trying to show us. This is how mankind will be saved...through the efforts of man, for man, and through the power of love that dwells within those that choose to embrace it. By Jesus' example we see this, and we honor him by doing so...

Matthew 16:25
25. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Offering yourself means death. It means saying "Ok God, I continue to do the thigns I do, but I'll pay the penalty after". That penalty is death.

Love and responsibility is the answer to the salvation of mankind. Not putting your burdens on another to pay for. Personal salvation is a hopeful myth! I'm willing to take up the cross, and die for what Jesus was trying to accomplish. The question is: Are you? It takes faith!

As for learning from mistakes...one must only be willing!

Proverbs says much about this...

Btw, some will say you can't just pick and choose things you like, or things that make sense in the bible. They will tell you you must accept it all as fact, or nothing at all!

I say, that is like saying in order to be an american, you must embrace, and agree with everything our government does.

We have minds to discern things, and I think God expects us to use them...

[Pyramidsonmars]

Ya been down that road before. I know all the ins and outs of fundemental Christianity. For one..tell her that there are contradicting resurrection stories, as Luke says there were 2 angels at the tomb...but in Mark there is just a man at the tomb. Remember that Mark was supposedly the first canonical gospel written (besides the Gospel of Thomas which some say is the Q source) and Matthew and Luke were just expanded versions of Mark. John is in a category of its own.

However since there is a contradiction, the whole faith shatters because they are told the Bible is infalliable without contradictions. See how she reacts to this.

Have you ever had to give an eye witness testimony before? I have infact. There was a fight outside of my work one night and I had to talk to a police officer about what I had seen. My coworker saw the whole thing as well and had to do so also.

The odd thing is that since there was so much excitement, and chaos, me and my coworker tended to give different testimony when it came to some of the smaller details. Was his hat blue or purple? Did he have one friend or two? etc.

The gospels are eye witness accounts of Christ's life. In the case of the angels at the tomb, we know that any time angels have appeared in the bible, they have frightened those who saw them - so it's no doubt during an excitement like that some little details like that might not be carefully paid attention too...Also they've often appeared as a "heavenly host". If anything, small differences such as that (and I've heard this specific one before) would lead me to believe that they are true; that perhaps this is real testimony, and not just a bunch of guys getting together and making sure they all pitched the same story.

The bible is infallible. That's not to say some little errors in it don't exist. I do not make this claim, and neither does any level headed christian. What infallible means is that the book as a whole does not preach in two different directions.

[JunkYard]

Romans 1
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

I personaly think it is somewhat foolish to put put all your eggs in one basket, and depend on Jesus, or God to save mankind. I think it is far better to glorify God by accepting his creation, and being thankful for what we have, and strive to make life, or his creation a better place for future generations. I'd say that depending on Jesus, or God to do it all would be more 'futile' than for us to take responsibilty for what was given. I question who's hearts are actually 'darkened'...

I'm in it more fore those who will come after me, and Christians seem to be in it more for 'self'.

Surely you understand my delimma when it comes to converting to mainstrean Christianity, when I view it as a very selfish, self serving, and irresponsible religion...

[Pyramidsonmars]

Thanks again for explaining your views, man. I appreciate your willingness to help.

No problem friend I actually find fullfillment in talking about this.

Where to begin?

O.k, lets start with what you said about the holy spirit being a literal person. I couldn't disagree more. If you would, direct me to scripture that defines the holy spirit as being a person, and not "Spirit".

Perhaps we've misunderstood eachother. The Holy Spirit is a spirit, yes. What I mean is that the Holy Spirit is an individual "being" - who is a part of God - and not a "state of love". Jesus talks about the Holy Spirit in John chapter 16:

Jesus says:
5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

16"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."

--It is elaborated a bit further in Acts, when His diciples recieve the Holy Spirit for the first time at Pentacost. I will provide the link:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=2&version=31

I don't believe it guides us through scripture, to helps us discern its compexities. Case in point, the many differing Christian denominations. Is the holy spirit telling something different to different people? No, its not telling anything! It convicts by its own essence, and that essence is 'love'.

The division of the christian church is in humanity themselves. Our different cultures create different outlooks; differences in opinion and different presuppositions. Humanity can never look at Truth directly; it burns like sunlight. the Holy Spirit is our guide and teacher. Most denominations (and I blame catholosism for somewhat pushing this) are quite timid and inexperienced with the Holy Spirit. Case in point: My church growing up. I had never learned about the true meaning of the Holy Spirit (until I read it for myself in the Bible - and experienced it myself). They seemed to have hid it from their focus - not deny it mind you - they ignore it. Once I experienced it in scripture, I brought it up with a few members. They seemed quite defensive and almost desperate to overlook it. To be honest, some of the gifts of the Holy Spirit - gifts of prophecy, speaking in tounges, etc - are to some a little too "hokey" for a more conservative mind. The church has grown stagnant, and I now believe that Christ's church is not found in buildings, rather in the fellowship of those who believe and follow him.

The division of the church comes from our own flaw. Even Israel could not follow God, though a few amongst them could. Christianity has taken the long way around this. We've ignored it, but it's there. We've let it divide us, when it comes to bring us together.

True 'comfort' comes from love. you see, love conquers fear, and Jesus clearly stated that the holy spirit was the 'comforter'. Again, it is up to each individual to embrace it. Love is a very powerful force, man. This is not a religious concept either. All can profit by accepting its power...religious, or not!

Yes my friend, you are correct The Holy Spirit is our comforter, but I must further stress that it is our teacher, and councelor; our dogma. Religion is a dead term. I do not believe that a christian life should be founded apon it's "religious" aspects, but rather the Holy Spirit inside. I think we're in agreement here, unless I misunderstand you. What I must stress, however, is that the Holy Spirit is found through Christ. He is sent by Christ; he is the spiritual circumsision that we have when we accept christ. It is only with Christ in us, that the Holy Spirit (who was in christ) is in us.

We can move to Jesus now, and what he did on the cross. (My views)

You see, Jesus said to "pick up your cross, and follow me". The cross is a metaphor for sin and responsibility, imo. He willingly died on the cross accepting, and bearing the burdens of man. But wait, he said "follow me". He set the example for what is required of all man. To bear your own cross, and willingly die, or to sacrifice your own life for the lives of others.

Not literaly, we all must die someday, and Jesus clearly showed us this on the cross. I'm talking about living not just for self, but for all mankind in attempt to create a better life experience for future generations. Through love this is possible, and Jesus showed us what it meant to love. He was our example, not our savior! He simply showed us the way, and gave us a clear sign of what it will take to save mankind.

Yes Jesus was the perfect example of how to love! I thank God that you can see that. It may be however, that you have an unclear picture of what Jesus taught. I would suggest reading John. He gives clear testimony of what the Spirit is, and what Jesus actually said; what Jesus asked of us. He says he died to forgive our sins. He says he is the saviour of mankind. Now I can provide a list of links, but I stress reading the gospels yourself (if you haven't), or reading them again (if you have).

He spoke in parables, and why would the message of the cross be any different? Personal salvation is for the selfish, and self serving, but sacrificing your life for the future lives of others, and bearing the burdens of man is what Jesus was trying to show us. This is how mankind will be saved...through the efforts of man, for man, and through the power of love that dwells within those that choose to embrace it. By Jesus' example we see this, and we honor him by doing so...

No, no, no! haha sorry. If anything Jesus's whole purpose was to show us that mankind can not do it. Paul writes in Romans:

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

That stumbling stone is the "Law" of the old testiment, put their for men to stumble over. Only by failing to keep Gods law over and over again, do we realise that mankind can NOT do this without God's help. That is why Jesus is so important. That is why we have to accept God's Son; the Messiah. It is only God in us that can make us like His Son. Please, read John and see for your own understanding. I can not do this real justice, but the Truth is in the Word.

Matthew 16:25
25. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

This is the same as the rich man who would not give up his riches to follow Jesus, holding on to the worldy pleasures and not the truth that is Christ. Christ asks of us to leave what we're doing and follow him. I do not believe (personally) that this verse applies to our physical life, but rather what we are making of our lives. To follow the things in this world means to die with this world in the end. I would suggest reading the whole of Matthew 16, as it puts this verse into context (single verses on their own can be taken in whatever way we want, but as a whole they promote one message)

[Pyramidsonmars]

I personaly think it is somewhat foolish to put put all your eggs in one basket, and depend on Jesus, or God to save mankind. I think it is far better to glorify God by accepting his creation, and being thankful for what we have, and strive to make life, or his creation a better place for future generations. I'd say that depending on Jesus, or God to do it all would be more 'futile' than for us to take responsibilty for what was given. I question who's hearts are actually 'darkened'...

I'm in it more fore those who will come after me, and Christians seem to be in it more for 'self'.

Surely you understand my delimma when it comes to converting to mainstrean Christianity, when I view it as a very selfish, self serving, and irresponsible religion...

You're right. It is pointless to assume and ask Jesus to fix this world. That is why it is important to ask the Holy Spirit what part I might play in this world. God has big plans for all of his followers. He's called every part in the body to work, and should they recieve it great and wonderful things happen. God gives abundance to those who will recieve it (who will hear it). It IS our role in the world. It's sad that as of yet this world hasn't changed. I would like to quote Solomon though, simply because I get a kick from this verse. Some background information: Solomon was the son of King David. He was told by God that he could ask him for anything, and he asked for wisdom and God gave it to him:

"So I hated life, because the work that is done under the sun was grievous to me. All of it is meaningless, a chasing after the wind. 18 I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me. 19 And who knows whether he will be a wise man or a fool? Yet he will have control over all the work into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun. "

My heart was darkned for 18 years my friend. I mean truley darkend. Though I claimed to myself that I was a good person, it is only clear to me now that all intent was selfish. Through the scripture I found that it taught nothing of selfish intent. I was stubborn. I can't say you are, but I know the heart that I had without christ, and though I claimed to love, it was for myself. Thought I found happiness in helping others, it was for my vanity. Anyway, I thank the Lord that you've taken an intrest in these thigns. I hope you can get your answers! Remember, what I say can never do justice to what is in the scripture.

[JunkYard]

No problem friend I actually find fullfillment in talking about this.

I do as well. I've been reading and studying scripture sinse childhood, only I've come to different conclusions than most. This may be do to the fact that I believe in being a standup guy, and bearing my own burdens.

Perhaps we've misunderstood eachother. The Holy Spirit is a spirit, yes. What I mean is that the Holy Spirit is an individual "being" - who is a part of God - and not a "state of love". Jesus talks about the Holy Spirit in John chapter 16:

Jesus says:
5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

I think we are all princes of the world, and we all deserve a degree of condimnation. The holy spirit convicts us of our own shortcomings, yet comforts when embraced, and incorporated in everyday activities.

12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

This simply supports my current beliefs further. They weren't ready to take responsibility, so Jesus allowed them to stay in ignorance about what was actually expected of them. (All mankind) Truth comes when you embrace love for all mankind, and for all creation. Love speaks different things for different people. I think it depends on level of maturity? None can know what is to come, but through our convictions (By the holy spirit, or 'love) we can get an idea. Although, I believe many fall short of 'hearing' what is to actually come, and what is actually expected.

All that makes Jesus, makes us, and this is what was to be made known. That we are sons, and daughters of God ourselves, and it is our responsibility to make the same sacrifices Jesus made. Creation is ours, just as it was Jesus'... We are all Christs in this respect.

--It is elaborated a bit further in Acts, when His diciples recieve the Holy Spirit for the first time at Pentacost. I will provide the link:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=2&version=31

Thanks for the link...

The division of the christian church is in humanity themselves. Our different cultures create different outlooks; differences in opinion and different presuppositions. Humanity can never look at Truth directly; it burns like sunlight. the Holy Spirit is our guide and teacher. Most denominations (and I blame catholosism for somewhat pushing this) are quite timid and inexperienced with the Holy Spirit. Case in point: My church growing up. I had never learned about the true meaning of the Holy Spirit (until I read it for myself in the Bible - and experienced it myself). They seemed to have hid it from their focus - not deny it mind you - they ignore it. Once I experienced it in scripture, I brought it up with a few members. They seemed quite defensive and almost desperate to overlook it. To be honest, some of the gifts of the Holy Spirit - gifts of prophecy, speaking in tounges, etc - are to some a little too "hokey" for a more conservative mind. The church has grown stagnant, and I now believe that Christ's church is not found in buildings, rather in the fellowship of those who believe and follow him.

Again, I think the holy spirit convicts each individual differently depending on what they are willing to see, and level of maturity. I'm not fond of speaking in toungues, nor do I believe that there is anything to those who claim they can. Prophesy, on the other hand, anyone can see, if you look at the world with open eyes. I wonder what would happen if all the world simply put all the burdens of life on Jesus, and expected him to come back, and make it all better, rather than playing a role in creation themselves. Most Christians believe it is usless to try, and do nothing, but wait for their own lives.

The division of the church comes from our own flaw. Even Israel could not follow God, though a few amongst them could. Christianity has taken the long way around this. We've ignored it, but it's there. We've let it divide us, when it comes to bring us together.

I agree...I think? Man will only see what he is 'willing' to see, and will only come to the reality of truth when he puts away the selfish man...

Yes my friend, you are correct The Holy Spirit is our comforter, but I must further stress that it is our teacher, and councelor; our dogma. Religion is a dead term. I do not believe that a christian life should be founded apon it's "religious" aspects, but rather the Holy Spirit inside. I think we're in agreement here, unless I misunderstand you. What I must stress, however, is that the Holy Spirit is found through Christ. He is sent by Christ; he is the spiritual circumsision that we have when we accept christ. It is only with Christ in us, that the Holy Spirit (who was in christ) is in us.

All can embrace the holy spirit, imo. Even w/o the knowledge of Jesus. We are all Christs ourselves when we embrace the same things Jesus stood for, (Love and responsibility) and when we understand this reality, (What I believe to be) we can then start the process of becoming, and make substantial change in the world.

Yes Jesus was the perfect example of how to love! I thank God that you can see that. It may be however, that you have an unclear picture of what Jesus taught. I would suggest reading John. He gives clear testimony of what the Spirit is, and what Jesus actually said; what Jesus asked of us. He says he died to forgive our sins. He says he is the saviour of mankind. Now I can provide a list of links, but I stress reading the gospels yourself (if you haven't), or reading them again (if you have).

I agree that Jesus was the perfect example of love, but I also believe that Jesus parallels who we all are when we ebrace his example. (His love for all mankind, and for all creation.) We are all potential 'saviours' of mankind, imo. We are made whole when we accept the very same burdens Jesus accepted. We are all sons, and daughters of God. Adam being the first, and only true son, but we are decendents of adam by the flesh, therefore we are essentially one.

No, no, no! haha sorry. If anything Jesus's whole purpose was to show us that mankind can not do it. Paul writes in Romans:

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

That stumbling stone is the "Law" of the old testiment, put their for men to stumble over. Only by failing to keep Gods law over and over again, do we realise that mankind can NOT do this without God's help. That is why Jesus is so important. That is why we have to accept God's Son; the Messiah. It is only God in us that can make us like His Son. Please, read John and see for your own understanding. I can not do this real justice, but the Truth is in the Word.

The truth is in ourselves once we know, and understand the power of love. Jesus is love, the holy spirit is love, and God is love as well. This is why we fail, and stumble...because we haven't embraced the love of God. Jesus shows us how by example, the holy spirit convicts by essence, and God is the source. This is what's expected of all mankind. To embrace this power, and to take up the cross, and willingly give our lives for the lives of others.

This is what it means to Love!

Jesus reinforces this concept in John chapter 15 and even 16 when Jesus says that he is the vine, and we are the branches. (God is the source) Jesus is the perfect example of love, and we cannot survive ourselves, or live a 'worthy' life w/o it. The bread and butter of Jesus' entire testimony is about love.

Love is the answer, man! At least, I believe it to be...

Btw, Ive read both the old, and new testament many times over with an objective approach. I still read the bilble when something crosses my mind. It is a facinating book! I particularly like the new testament.

This is the same as the rich man who would not give up his riches to follow Jesus, holding on to the worldy pleasures and not the truth that is Christ. Christ asks of us to leave what we're doing and follow him. I do not believe (personally) that this verse applies to our physical life, but rather what we are making of our lives. To follow the things in this world means to die with this world in the end. I would suggest reading the whole of Matthew 16, as it puts this verse into context (single verses on their own can be taken in whatever way we want, but as a whole they promote one message)

I'll read John 16 again in a few minutes to refresh my memory, and get back to you, but I honestly believe we are to sacrifice ourselves for the lives of those who will come after. You seem to fully expect the world to be destroyed, whereas I fully intend for mankind to save our species through the example that Jesus made for us.

He said to follow him. This to me means to follow his example, not to worship, and rely on a second coming to save the world.

Perhaps 'we' are the second coming when we embrace our responsibilities as the dominant species on earth? After all, I believe we are all become 'christ's' when we embrace all Jesus stood for...

Love and responsibility!

[JunkYard]

You're right. It is pointless to assume and ask Jesus to fix this world. That is why it is important to ask the Holy Spirit what part I might play in this world. God has big plans for all of his followers. He's called every part in the body to work, and should they recieve it great and wonderful things happen. God gives abundance to those who will recieve it (who will hear it). It IS our role in the world. It's sad that as of yet this world hasn't changed.

The world has not changed because the world does not value love. The world values material things, as well as self serving, and selfish endeavors. Who in the world sets the pace of what is expected of the masses? How many value the efforts of Ghandi, and the like? We seem to be caught so much in ourselves that we turn a blinded eye towards those that actually try to make a difference in life.

While Christians seek to convert, and bring others into their ways of thinking, it serves only the individuals in question, and little is done to chage the current realities of the type of world we live in. Most have given up hope of ever changing the world, so they turn to religion to give them hope. (A false sense of hope I might add!) This false sense of hope supports thier decisions to do nothing, and simply wait for their precious saviour to save them from the burdens of life. When in reality, we (Mankind) hold the key...

I would like to quote Solomon though, simply because I get a kick from this verse. Some background information: Solomon was the son of King David. He was told by God that he could ask him for anything, and he asked for wisdom and God gave it to him:

"So I hated life, because the work that is done under the sun was grievous to me. All of it is meaningless, a chasing after the wind. 18 I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me. 19 And who knows whether he will be a wise man or a fool? Yet he will have control over all the work into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun. "

Still, he pressed on, and did his part! Faith is a big word, and it takes faith to put hope in man. We should be doing all we can to show others the importance of love, and the importance of being responsible creatures. To show what God is, and what he surely wishes for his children. (For us to love one another, and press on, and fight the good fight, even in the darkest of times)

My heart was darkned for 18 years my friend. I mean truley darkend. Though I claimed to myself that I was a good person, it is only clear to me now that all intent was selfish. Through the scripture I found that it taught nothing of selfish intent. I was stubborn. I can't say you are, but I know the heart that I had without christ, and though I claimed to love, it was for myself. Thought I found happiness in helping others, it was for my vanity. Anyway, I thank the Lord that you've taken an intrest in these thigns. I hope you can get your answers! Remember, what I say can never do justice to what is in the scripture.

We are by nature, selfish creatures, and it takes much effort to put away the sefish man. We seem to want our own glory when we should be wanting to honor God...Who is, by definition, "love"!

Love breaks all barriers, and allows us to become something special. Sure we will all stumble, and fall, but this is how life works, man. Wisdom is gained through experiece. That is, if one is willing to embrace the lessons at hand. Otherwise, we will be the fools soloman so oftenly spoke about.