Top Ten Things from the USA that I Love !!

[andyandy]

Because the Founding Fathers were probably the greatest group of minds, with common goals, ever assembled in history.

lol.....can we have some perspective here? sure the constitutuion was a well written document full of great ideals of liberty and equality....but it was a concept founded on the work of great renaissance philosophers.....
indeed if you want to look for "great minds" on ideals on liberty an eqaulity then why stop there? - lao tsu was around 2600 years ago and he pretty much nailed it. The founding fathers were intelligent men but hardly worthy of some quasi-religious elevation to the most divinely intelligent group in history.....

[Breukelen advocaat]

lol.....can we have some perspective here? sure the constitutuion was a well written document full of great ideals of liberty and equality....but it was a concept founded on the work of great renaissance philosophers.....
indeed if you want to look for "great minds" on ideals on liberty an eqaulity then why stop there? - lao tsu was around 2600 years ago and he pretty much nailed it. The founding fathers were intelligent men but hardly worthy of some quasi-religious elevation to the most divinely intelligent group in history.....

I do not equate religious thinking with intellect. I did not use terms, in reference to the Founding Fathers, such as "divinely intelligent", nor did my statement reflect a "quasi-religious elevation". In fact, the Founding Fathers were themselves very secular in their approach to the type of government that they created. All I did was state my opinion that they were possibly the greatest "group" of men assembled in history - and the word "greatest" certainly does not, at least in my interpretation, have the slightest ring of religion, or religiosity, to it.

Just because they were educated, and intelligent, enough to be influenced by ideas and works from the great masters of philosophy, science, art, politics, and other subjects does not diminish their contribution -it enhanced and improved it.

[andyandy]

I do not equate religious thinking with intellect. I did not use terms, in reference to the Founding Fathers, such as "divinely intelligent", nor did my statement reflect a "quasi-religious elevation". In fact, the Founding Fathers were themselves very secular in their approach to the type of government that they created. All I did was state my opinion that they were possibly the greatest "group" of men assembled in history - and the word "greatest" certainly does not, at least in my interpretation, have the slightest ring of religion, or religiosity, to it.

Just because they were educated, and intelligent, enough to be influenced by ideas and works from the great masters of philosophy, science, art, politics, and other subjects does not diminish their contribution -it enhanced and improved it.

well....to claim that the founding fathers were the greatest grouping of minds in the history of mankind is certainly putting them on a pretty high pedestal.....when i refer to their status as quasi-religious i am refering to the myth that has been built up around them to serve the needs of US patriotism...its not enough for the US to have been founded by some really smart men, no! they have to be the smartest men ever to have walked the planet, and so by this inference the US is the greatest accomplishment of mankind....Their status is indeed quasi-religious because like catholic saints before them they have been elevated from the realm of the ordinary to the extraordinary in order to perpetuate a myth....and like Catholic saints to the church, to criticise or denigrate them is to blaspheme against the American dream, the American way - even America itself.....
there's plenty of religious symbolism in the US deference to the founding fathers....indeed you could draw parallels with the christian concept of god and the depiction of the group....
both exceptionally wise.....
both exceptionally good....
starting again with a new slate after all the failures of the old world to create a new beginning for mankind....


i'll be happy if you just admit that the founding fathers whilst undoubtly clever men, were not in fact the cleverest group of men ever to walk this planet....its really not too much to ask :thumbsup:

[Breukelen advocaat]

What other country in the world has, in just a couple of hundred years, come up with such things as jazz, atomic power, equal rights for people of all persuasions, free education through high school, the first man on the moon, the greatest military in the world, and so many more things? These things did not "just happen". The systems and intellectual concepts that were started, nurtured and promoted by Franklin, Jefferson, Madison, Washington, etc., were extremely well thought-out and intended for long-term flexibility. THAT is something you can't find anywhere else in the world! Jefferson and Franklin alone are worth more than the greatest minds of many civilizations combined.

Just do a google search of things that Franklin invented, or discovered, and try to tell me that he wasnâ??t the type of genius that only comes around once every few thousand years - IF the human race is lucky enough to get any more like him. A few of his inventions and discoveries include the lightening rod, bifocals, and an improved odometer.

Here's a few of the things that Thomas Jefferson invented, or improved:
http://inventors.about.com/gi/dynami...nt/invent.html

He also wrote the Declaration of Independence, among many other things.

[andyandy]

What other country in the world has, in just a couple of hundred years, come up with such things as jazz, atomic power, equal rights for people of all persuasions, free education through high school, the first man on the moon, the greatest military in the world, and so many more things? These things did not "just happen". The systems and intellectual concepts that were started, nurtured and promoted by Franklin, Jefferson, Madison, Washington, etc., were extremely well thought-out and intended for long-term flexibility. THAT is something you can't find anywhere else in the world! Jefferson and Franklin alone are worth more than the greatest minds of many civilizations combined.

hate to break it to you but the sundial, the clock, printing press, bookstand and bed were all kicking around long before Jefferson came along

with regards to rapid developments in a couple of hundred years - well most people would regard the industrial revolution in the UK 1700-1900 as a far more profound period of invention and developement socially, culturally and technologically....
as i highlighted before the founding fathers didnt "invent" free rights or equality - they were concepts that had been around for a long time - and the bill of rights was merely a progression of the growing enlightened thought of the era.....
Jefferson falls down on so many levels as the greatest mind ever....
if you want a philosospher with a profound impact on civilisation then there are plenty of great minds to choose from - buddha, lao tsu, socrates, plato, descartes,
If you want an inventor with a profound impact - well, there's edison, tessla, leonardo for a start.....
in the field of science - well Newton, Einstein, Darwin, hippocrates......

lets agree - jefferson was a clever guy - very clever - but neither philosophically, technologically or scientifically did he do enough to merit consideration as the greatest mind in human history.......

and with regards to your listing of the greatest achievements of the US in the last 200 years - i think you've sold yourself a bit short if the best you could come up with was nuclear weapons and jazz

[Breukelen advocaat]

If you don't appreciate jazz, then there's nothing that I can say! :thumbsup:

The Beatles got their music from American sources - and most other British rock acts including the Rolling Stones, Elton John, Rod Stewart etc. did the same. I like a lot of it, and listen to it, but they didn't "invent" it, either.

The government of the U.S. is what we were talking about, and YES I brought up the accomplisments of Jefferson and Franklin.

Franklin was the influence behind many an inventor - they all had nothing but praise for him. I guess that you know better. :dance:

Even old King George, after we won the War of Independecne, praised George Washington in a manner that is surprising. Again, I guess that YOU kinow better. :dance:

[psychocat]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution

Yeah Britain sure made a lot of changes.

[andyandy]

Franklin was the influence behind many an inventor - they all had nothing but praise for him. I guess that you know better. :dance:

Even old King George, after we won the War of Independecne, praised George Washington in a manner that is surprising. Again, I guess that YOU kinow better. :dance:

all im saying is that its a pretty high pedestal you've put the founding fathers on...and that there's no need for such hyperbole - they were undoubtly very clever men who have had a big influence on the development of the US and as result the world....no argument there from me....its just that they werent the greatest human minds ever.....in my opinion at least.....
guess we can agree to disagree lol

[Breukelen advocaat]

"Clever" sounds like a put-down. This wasn't a "game" to these people - they risked their lives for their ideas. Washington would have been hung had he been captured, because he had served in the military for the British. Franklin was much more than "Clever", and the bravery that Washington possessed was admired around the world.

Coming up with the lightning rod by itself would have been enough to immortalize Ben Franklin. He was not, by the way, gung-ho for the Revolution in the beginning - but most of his colleagues were, so he went for it. If you ever go to Philadelphia, be sure to visit the exhibition dedicated to him, in the area where he lived and worked. It's very impressive, and there are numerous exhibits.

I can agree to disagree - there's nothing wrong with that.

When people are talking about the founders of the United States of America, I'm GLAD to be able have the freedom to express my opinion - because those are the very people that made it possible. I'm very fortunate to know about a number of my ancestors that served in the Revolution - and I owe my freedom to them, and all of the other Patriots that sacrificed so much, as well.

:thumbsup:

[andyandy]

"
When people are talking about the founders of the United States of America, I'm GLAD to be able have the freedom to express my opinion.

amen to that

that was an interesting debate :thumbsup: