a challenge to those who feel intelligent

[altagid]

[QUOTE=Reefer Rogue]I did quote my source. Look harder at my last post [/quote}

And so you did! I am fucking blind. I apologize.

If there were a God, there would be no evil in the world. (From the concept of God)

I dont buy that. Who says God is good? Perhaps he is cruel? Perhaps the good in the world is just here to make the evil more painful? Even if God is good, he might be using evil for good purposes. Sort of "tough love" . And then perhaps he doesnt care about us at all. If God exists why should he necessarily be concerned with our existence. Perhaps our status in the universe is on a par with cockroaches? A sort of pest that is hard to suppress completely. Perhaps God just created the universe, as a science experiment and then left it to run its course.

It does seem improbable to me that a Good and caring God could have created the harsh, cruel world we live in - but improbability is only evidence against Gods existence not proof and, before any one jumps on me, this was presented as a proof.

This is another Bifurcation Fallacy.

[Reefer Rogue]

I never said it was proof. I just stated evidece for both sides. It's up to every what what we believe. We DO have free will. Would you disagree?

[altagid]

... i don't see any reason why we couldn't know everything one day. that's not to say that we will, or that it's even likely, but there's no reason to rule it out.

What do you mean by "know" and "know everything"? Do you think we will ever know all the digits of PI in its decimal expression?

[Adolf Smittler]

What do you mean by "know" and "know everything"? Do you think we will ever know all the digits of PI in its decimal expression?

perhaps a new form of math will be invented to reveal this. we're long overdue for one.

[altagid]

I never said it was proof. I just stated evidece for both sides. It's up to every what what we believe. We DO have free will. Would you disagree?

It most definitely is an attempt at a proof or at least a logical argument. An argument is not the same as evidence. Evidence can be a component of an argument but they are not the same thing. In that last example the only evidence IMO is the existence of evil

I have serious doubts about free will. I cant square the idea of free will with that of a universe governed entirely by physical laws. Nor can I find any evidence for free will. I cant think of any way of testing for it either. I have serious doubts even about the existence of a self that could exercise free will. And finally, I am not entirely convinced that I even exist. You might call me a skeptic.

[Adolf Smittler]

I never said it was proof. I just stated evidece for both sides. It's up to every what what we believe. We DO have free will. Would you disagree?

if god is omniscient, then he knows our choices for a fact in advance. all people must make choices that conform to what god knows, or else he is not omniscient. however, we then do not have free will.

[Adolf Smittler]

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...adictions.html

[Stedric]

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding your question. You're asking for someone to prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) that their religious beliefs are the correct ones. Faith is not a logical operation, there is no proof involved. The whole point of religion is that it is belief without proof.

[Adolf Smittler]

It most definitely is an attempt at a proof or at least a logical argument. An argument is not the same as evidence. Evidence can be a component of an argument but they are not the same thing. In that last example the only evidence IMO is the existence of evil

I have serious doubts about free will. I cant square the idea of free will with that of a universe governed entirely by physical laws. Nor can I find any evidence for free will. I cant think of any way of testing for it either. I have serious doubts even about the existence of a self that could exercise free will. And finally, I am not entirely convinced that I even exist. You might call me a skeptic.

this is a good point. if we assume that any cause has one effect, then the universe will proceed in a set way until the end of time. another theory i'm sure you're familiar with is that if we could look at one single moment in the universe, then we could look at all the effects and find the causes, and effectively piece together the history of the universe.

[Adolf Smittler]

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding your question. You're asking for someone to prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) that their religious beliefs are the correct ones. Faith is not a logical operation, there is no proof involved. The whole point of religion is that it is belief without proof.

i did not expect somebody to prove their beliefs. the point of this thread was for people to attemt to, so we could argue back and forth. religious faith is without proof or evidence, and therefore, without reason. thus i conclude that to be religion is irrational. however, one can have logical faith, like faith that they will wake up in the morning, or that they can beat super mario bros 3 after years of practicing. these things can not be proven or disproven when they are assumed, but will be so later. god can never be proven, and therefore should not be believed.