Results 121 to 130 of 146
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02-27-2006, 01:23 AM #121Senior Member
a challenge to those who feel intelligent
Originally Posted by Polymirize
Originally Posted by Polymirize
ויאמר לא תוכל לראת את פני כי לא יראני האדם וחי
And he (God) said, You cannot see my face - for man shall not see me and live. (2nd book 33)
Moses is asking for certainty - and God is telling him that he cannot have that while he lives.
God goes on to explain that Moses is just going to have to settle for peep of Gods beehind.
Check it out. Its a beautiful moving passage about the doubt that all men must accept.
Just because you have doubt doesnt mean that all bets are equal. Did you ever play poker? Its essentially a game about managing uncertainty - managing it more skillyfully than your opponents. Just because all men men have a weakness does not mean that all men are weak.
Sure you can doubt the very foundations of knowledge, the underpinnings of math and science. And you should! That doesnt mean they are discredited or even that they are the equivalent of all other forms of knowledge.
Ok so you might really be just a brain in a vat. Do you pay your electric bill or not?Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom: It is the argument of tyrants - It is the creed of slaves
Sir William Pitt
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02-27-2006, 02:31 AM #122Senior Member
a challenge to those who feel intelligent
ur all dumb cuz god is easily found through meditation and the knowledge that people have gained through meditation. religion is fake and god tries to make every single persons religion seem real cuz he loves us, but in the end, what god is is beyond any thing like a religion, god is truely purely just the root soul of us all that has all the knowledge of everything we see and everything we are.
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02-27-2006, 09:25 AM #123Senior Member
a challenge to those who feel intelligent
Originally Posted by altagid
As for religion, I'll just say, contrary to poker, the human weakness in all humans is the groundwork for compassion, not exploitation. I don't rely on causal or quantum connections in order to be a moral person. Whether or not there is a spiritual connection between all people, I behave as if there is. Whether or not my existence is predetermined or not, I behave as if I have freedom. I behave as if I should pay my bills rather than just lounge around in my vat.
What would you do?
ps ~ I don't see it as a straw man. I hardly built it into much, and never represented it as a statement of your views. You could make a case for it being an example of equivocation. But I think it stands. But it's all bullshit to you isn't it? Why should you have to know anything about logical standards when you deal with Science afterall :thumbsup:
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02-27-2006, 09:41 AM #124Senior Member
a challenge to those who feel intelligent
Sorry, just had to add this:
Originally Posted by altagid
Or do you mean cases where things obviously went hidiously wrong? Cases like Hitler and his biological experiments on the Jewish people? Or Chernobyl?
Oh wait, the scientists who do horrible things aren't really scientists. Just like the crusades wasn't really "Christians". At least, not as Christians would like to think of themselves.
As a scientist, are you hoping to discover what's out there? Or are you hoping to prove you already know something?
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02-27-2006, 07:38 PM #125Senior Member
a challenge to those who feel intelligent
Originally Posted by Polymirize
As for Truth with a capital T there isnt much of that in Science. Science is mostly about doubt, the skillful constructive use of doubt - not certainty. Very few important scientific results are "proved". Even the "Law of Gravitation" is just a theory and could, at least in principle be overturned. In fact the hope is that it will!
Just because I dont accept the existence of a spiritual world doesnt mean I closed minded about it Look, what's your position on Unicorns? or Bigfoot? Well mine is this, show me convincing evidence and I will accept their existence but until then, I conduct my life as if those things dont exist. I wont buy leather goods claiming to be unicorn hide . I wont waste my time and money going on a wild BigFoot chase, not on the strength of what we know at this time - this is a skeptical approach. You make the best decision you can based on the facts and tools that you have available - if later you get an opportunity to revise that decision, you jump at it.
Originally Posted by Polymirize
Originally Posted by Polymirize
Originally Posted by Polymirize
Originally Posted by Polymirize
Originally Posted by Polymirize
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom: It is the argument of tyrants - It is the creed of slaves
Sir William Pitt
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02-28-2006, 12:42 AM #126Senior Member
a challenge to those who feel intelligent
polymirize, what does..putting faith into sience have to do with you using your computer to type on these forums? well IF you get on your comp GET on the internet,TYPE on these forums, hell you're using your computer for that. where does faith go into there...? do you guess everytime you hit the power button that the comp will turn on? no duh it'll turn on cuz you KNOW it will turn on, has nothing to do with faith.. but putting faith in something with no prooof, existing "before" dragons existed...how do you explain....anything right about that? but all you live for is to do right things cuz god said so..
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02-28-2006, 12:56 AM #127Senior Member
a challenge to those who feel intelligent
Originally Posted by Polymirize
Originally Posted by Polymirize
You keep firing these bolts at targets that dont exist and I feel as if you are trying to have a discussion with someone who is not here. No one here is proposing blind faith in science or that science can answer all the questions that we need to ask.
Originally Posted by Polymirize
Again, science is a method of investigation. It is most effective in the physical world. It has no direct bearing on moral conduct or any of the existential questions that torment man. Its like plumbing - there are good plumbers and there are evil plumbers - so what?Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom: It is the argument of tyrants - It is the creed of slaves
Sir William Pitt
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02-28-2006, 10:03 AM #128Senior Member
a challenge to those who feel intelligent
My point is you're setting science on a pedestal by saying that science never leads us "wrong".
I agree with you when you say it has absolutely no moral implications, and since the notion of this entire thread was to demonstrate something about religion (or perhaps, as I'm trying to work with here, religious principles), why are we even talking about science again?
I agree (assuming I'm understanding you now, no promises) that science, the verifiable (and more importantly, falsifiable) source of empirical data can't tell us anything about how to live.
And yet, do you know how to live?
In a very real sense, I just want to know... how are you doing?
ps~ I'll agree, that last part is more rhetoric and jibing rather than logical valid, but no, it's still not a strawman argument.
A strawman argument is where I build a position similar to yours but with obvious deficienties and then tear it down. But in order to really get a strawman argument it would still require more of a build up, and probably a lot of "you say/said X". In short, misrepresentation. Have I supplied hard to think about analogies? Yes. Misrepresented your own position? I don't think so...
You should like, learn some philosophy and stuff man...:stoned:
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02-28-2006, 10:18 AM #129Senior Member
a challenge to those who feel intelligent
Originally Posted by TipTIP
How do you KNOW, when you push that button, that your computer will turn on, as opposed to remaining off. Maybe it's broken, maybe its out of power, maybe god just plain hates you.
Are there limits to KNOWLEDGE? and if so, when we go beyond them, what else would we call it other than FAITH? Faith that the future will resemble the past even perhaps?
I guess my main point would just be to get a couple of the people out there to admit that yes, we all take some things on faith, because then this entire development of religion (or perhaps, religiousness? spirituality?) angle becomes merely a matter of degree...
Do you follow all that?
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02-28-2006, 06:51 PM #130Senior Member
a challenge to those who feel intelligent
Originally Posted by Polymirize
Originally Posted by Polymirize
Being an atheist is a cold and lonely thing in many ways. You must confront the fact of your imminent death without any warm blanket or comfort that religion can offer. Death for an atheist is intensely personal and intensely lonely. But with this comes an exhilerating sense of release and freedom. My life is mine to do with as I wish and as I can.
I have found nothing that even begins to explain the way it feels to be a man and to know that I am a man. But I feel strongly, and this is a scientific idea, that one should not try to dispel mysteries with stories. Its ok not to know even though it is a torment.Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom: It is the argument of tyrants - It is the creed of slaves
Sir William Pitt
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