Why religion doesn't exist

[Oneironaut]

Me too. I have gone through lots of personal paradigm shifts as new facts about the world turn around my ways of thinking, but I look at it as a learning experience. To quote the Irish author Jonathan Swift, "A man should never be ashamed to own that he has been in the wrong, which is but saying... that he is wiser today than yesterday."

[TakeFlight]

How they influence your brain? Or it?s existence as a whole? Either way I have no idea, never studied them, never read anything about them. Could be human influence, could be a coincidence, or maybe it?s some sort of self defense system. Not sure too many animals would eat them if they made them hallucinate. I guess this last one would make the most sense, but it certainly isn?t the only poisonous mushroom. Plenty of mushrooms, plants, and animals would fuck you up if you ate them.

I dont eat mushrooms to get "fucked up" in any way at all. I view them as more of a tool/learning device. I think if you take them to get "fucked up" that the little buggers will toss you around and you will get fucked up but not in a good way . It seems to me(and ive read it from multiple people) that the hallucinogenic properties in mushrooms, being psliocybin and psilocin(sp?), are in a way a key to an archive of information. Ive read from multiple sources that the indeginous people of several countries use hallucinogens for shamanic purposes like healing. Ive also read that these hallucinogens like DMT bring them down to the molecular level in their hallucinations and the most frequent sight during these trips are double helix's and chromosones and other building blocks of life. I for one cant say that this is true but while tripping i have always thought of mushrooms as something greater than people make them out to be and have always felt them trying to tell me things but most the time i dont want to listen at the moment or wasnt ready to listen. I really suggest you read up on it and even better experience it for yourself, i think anyone who can theorize about science and evolution and life should take a heavy dose of mushrooms and explore your thoughts about it.

Isnt our DNA basically a bio-organic information storage device? like a floppy disk or hard drive.....how the FUCK does science explain that

Its things like this that really make me doubt what you say and how science explains things, not that im rebuking all science, im saying that well basically science thinks it has all the balls in the world and can take on any subject and break it down, which i think is ludacris but then again i am somewhat religous so i am that way naturally, but to each his own

[Polymirize]

To say that science is worse than religion at self-evaluation is just flat out wrong. Do you know the difference between faith and evidence? Good scientists look at the evidence and draw conclusions from that. Faith means you just believe because you believe because you believe.

When did I say anything about religion?

And yeah, you're absolutely right about good scientists.

maybe you should read my posts and work with what they actually say rather than jump into your little tangents about what you want me to say.

You wouldn't want to be accused of religious zeal or anything.

Honestly, what's with you and religion? You're like rabid dog if you even suspect a person. It's like the red scare around you if some one drops the G word.

[xblackdogx]

I havn't met god. But I know for sure there is one, and im not a brainwashed fool or liar. Just think. There had some be SOME significant being/and or events that lead to our creation

The significant thing that lead to our creation was time.

[Oneironaut]

When did I say anything about religion?

And yeah, you're absolutely right about good scientists.

maybe you should read my posts and work with what they actually say rather than jump into your little tangents about what you want me to say.

You wouldn't want to be accused of religious zeal or anything.

"I guess I should mention that skepticism is a huge part of science."
"Except of course, when it comes to the rather painful task of self-evalutation."

You said that skepticism is not a big part of science when it comes to the task of self-evaluation. Well then, compared to what? Science means looking at the evidence and using logic to build suitable theories to explain them, and always leaving the theories open to rejection or modification when new evidence comes to light. If you're not doing that, you're not doing science. So what other ways of knowing about the world are there besides one based on evidence and logic, and how is possible that such an approach could ever be more self-evaluating than science?

A way of trying to understand the world that is not based on evidence and logic must therefore be based on something else. The only things I can think of are just believing what you're told and believing in something because it's comfortable to believe in it. And as far as I'm concerned, any system of beliefs like that is indistinguishable from religion.

Honestly, what's with you and religion? You're like rabid dog if you even suspect a person. It's like the red scare around you if some one drops the G word.

People are free to believe whatever they want, of course. But I think religion is a horrible idea and the world would be much better without it. When we teach our children that faith is good, that it is not only acceptable but praiseworthy to just accept things for which there is no evidence, we are damaging their abilities for critical thought.

God is a dangerous idea. To teach that there is a divine being that will enact justice is to teach that we don't have to do it here on earth. To teach that there is an eternal afterlife is to teach that earthly life is worthless. To teach that there is an absolute morality superior to humans that's woven into the universe is to teach that ethical behavior cannot be arrived at through reason and a respect for other people's happiness. It also teaches that once you know this absolute morality (all religions claim to know at least some of it), it's okay to impose those morals on others since they supposedly apply to everybody.

God is also a potentially lethal idea. What major theistic religion has not had its share of terrorists ready to spread the faith by any means necessary? There are thousands of different gods that humans have invented and believe in with absolute certainty, but there isn't a shred of evidence for any of them. Disputes between people as to the nature of God/the gods (and the nature of the absolute morality that applies to everybody) cannot be argued with logic or reason, so vehemently religious people often try out violence to resolve the confluct. As long as society thinks it's okay to teach children about the gods and their absolute moralities, there will always be people who take these ideas really really seriously and there will always be religious war and religious terrorism. That is why I am against God belief.

As Mikhail Bakunin so beautifully stated in God and the State:

God being everything, the real world and man are nothing. God being truth, justice, goodness, beauty, power, and life, man is falsehood, iniquity, evil, ugliness, impotence, and death. God being master, man is the slave. Incapable of finding justice, truth, and eternal life by his own effort, he can attain them only through a divine revelation. But whoever says revelation says revealers, messiahs, prophets, priests, and legislators inspired by God himself; and these, once recognized as the representatives of divinity on earth, as the holy instructors of humanity, chosen by God himself to direct it in the path of salvation, necessarily exercise absolute power.
...
A jealous lover of human liberty, and deeming it the absolute condition of all that we admire and respect in humanity, I reverse the phrase of Voltaire, and say that, if God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish him.

[Polymirize]

Compared to itself of course. Just because science self-evaluates better than religion I need to accept it as the pinnacle? not at all. I think science is begging for a new paradigm shift myself.

"God is a dangerous idea"... sure. So is freedom. So is love. So is everything that makes the human experience worthwhile.
I'm sure all religious people are just as bad as you say. Afterall, you have empirical data I presume. I'm sure that all the problems are really religious, as opposed to being cultural, or economic.

[Oneironaut]

Compared to itself of course. Just because science self-evaluates better than religion I need to accept it as the pinnacle? not at all. I think science is begging for a new paradigm shift myself.

Of course science is the pinnacle of critical self-evaluation. How could it not be? The definition of science is critical evaluation of evidence using logic to arrive at theories to explain the universe. If you're not self-evaluating, you're not doing science properly. Science doesn't need to change; only the scientists themselves.

"God is a dangerous idea"... sure. So is freedom. So is love. So is everything that makes the human experience worthwhile.

How are freedom and love dangerous? If everybody were really free and loving, what would be so dangerous about that? I think that would be a pretty non-dangerous, worthwile human experience myself.

I'm sure all religious people are just as bad as you say. Afterall, you have empirical data I presume. I'm sure that all the problems are really religious, as opposed to being cultural, or economic.

I didn't say all religious people are bad. I said religion is bad, the God myth is bad. Just the same way that racism and alcoholism are bad for society but not all racists and alcoholics are necessarily bad people (and of course, anyone is free to be a racist or an alcoholic if they so choose). Granted, there are many problems that are just cultural or economic in origin, and I would like to see sweeping changes in those areas of human affairs as well (read my signature). But religious faith is no doubt a big part of the problem, and it's wholly unnecessary.

[Polymirize]

I didn't say all religious people are bad. I said religion is bad, the God myth is bad.

How is freedom dangerous? Why do you think our country simply locks up or censors anyone who might pose a threat to them (not total, but close)? Are all possibilities safe? Of course not, some of them could be disasterous, but we have the freedom to choose. Have you ever been free? Have you ever been in love?

As for religion, I guess here's the sticky point. While you can abstract, and talk about religion, or politics, or society as it's own entity, they're always about people. These are not abstractions, they are human beings relating to larger systems outside of themselves. How far can you seperate the religious person from religion? Or the racist from racisim? Can you just pull apart the people and inter them into camps?

You're always so systematic about diagnosing the problem with society. I just worry about the day you try to eliminate it.

[OldPotSmoker]

I put this post in another forum, but after reading this most excellent debate amongst 2 powerful adversaries, I thought I would cheat and copy and paste, because I have not found a way to quote a post in one forum, and insert in another one.
So much has been said in this forum to date that ranges around a lot of 'technical' stuff, but is really a debate as to whether Religion or Science is better. The information has been out-standing, as has been the debate!:rasta: Religion is a 'state of mind', as is Science. It ALL depends on the 'Interpretation'! Without further 'adoo', I present the post and welcome your comments! --
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I believe in God. In this I believe in a 'higher power' or force in the Universe. An energy channel if you will, that 'feeds on' positives from within, as opposed to negatives, which in it's very nature syphons the negativity from this 'cosmic energy'!
I also beleive that Jesus Christ walked the Earth, and don't see Dan Browns revelations in his Novel on this matter of any threat to that belief. I would have loved to talk to him!! Jesus, that is. He would have cleared up a lot of questions from me.
I believe that God is about goodness and positivity!
I believe the Bible, and the 'actual reading' of that Bible, no matter the Religion, is my 'guide book' to life!!! If you buy a fridge/car/microwave/tv etc, you get a 'Users Manual'.
I believe that the devil is about badness and negativity!
I believe that if you find an opportunity to be in a good christian church, you can 'feel' the positive energy there!
I beleive that there are opposites to everything! Up-Down. Here-There. Black-White, Good-Bad, Light-Dark, God-devil etc etc..

I do not believe in Religion! Religion is 'mans' interpretation of Gods' word. That is usually why there are so many 'different sects' or religious branches of the clergy! History has shown that it is the Churches and their Clergy, who 'interpret' the written word in almost every Religion on Earth. Eastern, Western, Middle and sides..
We then are 'told' these versions, (In the beginning.... ONLY CHURCHES were allowed to read and 'interpret' the Bible) and if you were Strong in that Church, (Catholic, Presbyterian, Baptist, Moslem, Jewish, Buddist, etc...) then you were taught to believe their 'dogma', or 'interpretation'. If you were not Strong or did not believe then you could seek answers elsewhere! (That was only after the Bible was printed. Thanks to the Guttenburg Press)
Catholics, Church of England, Presbyterian, Methodist, Fundementalist etc.. They ALL 'interpret' what they read and interpret and use it to their benefit or purpose. If the Church does not allow it, then they formed a breakaway group, and started again.
This has created a lot of confusion for people nowadays. Once upon a long time ago when I was a boy, it was 'normal' to go to church on Sunday morning. I loved the singing and meeting up with my friends and listening to the stories. I also loved the warmth of the people you met there.
After my sister died, my Dad seemed to take it personally, and we did not go anymore. As the years passed and I had more 'freedom of choice', I never went back to church. It was always in my mind, but never seemed to convert to actually going! (Except for the odd wedding, funeral etc)
That was until I was about 30. (20 odd years ago) I found myself in a Motel room away from home, and having nothing to read, I started reading the "Gideon" Bible. That was the start of a journey that I am still on. An amazing journey!!!
I decided to 'look' for God. My journey showed to me a heap of good things, and the bad things, manipulations of/by 'Religion'! The Church needed money so the sermons and the 'bible study' classes, all dealt with 'tithing'!!

"Which one do I choose?", "How do I go about it?", "What about Evolution and Darwin?" "Do we believe 'Science' or the slected texts spewed up by the Clergy to combat science?", "Is there Re-incarnation?", "Is there really a Heaven and Hell?" etc etc..
Questions are still there and more of them as I progress through, and are still largely unanswered!
I like to think that if following a path 'feels right', then it usually is. If you acheive benefits for yourself by becoming a better person and helping others and being mindful of others, and you grow within yourself and help others grow as well for the better, then it is a 'feel right' situation and I do it! And by "FEEL right" about something, I mean that when I have done something nice for someone, I get this warm fuzzy feeling inside afterwards. Not unknown oblivion!
That IMHO is the basis of what Religion should be.

Unfortunately in todays world, there is no longer, 'stability'. People/families, are being torn apart by the 'greed' of their fellow mankind.
We took to heart the saying: "Go forth and multiply". This Planet Earth is a sentient being. Fighting for it's survival! We take absolutely EVERYTHING from it and put absolutely nothing back. The Bible teaches to leave the fields farrow every 7 years, but do we? No we pour chemicals in to maintain the balance, but do not allow Nature to heal herself, her way!!
We suck the coal and the oil and gas out, leaving huge holes, and pollute the air using these products, then chop down the trees that filtered it all out!! (No wonder we have storms)
We quarry rock from inland, crush it up, turn it into concrete, and ALL over the world, build Mega Cities holding billions of tons of this concrete in buildings, all around the coastlines. (No wonder we have earthquakes there), (Is the Planet just trying to maintain her ballance?)
We discover from nature, new drugs, and synthesize them, and sell them for $'s. So many variants, that the bugs become immune! (No wonder we have the strain resistant Super-bugs)
Read the Bible, of whatever Religion you are looking at, and 'See' what the message means to you!! Only YOU. How you feel about it, what you think about it. Then ask others their opinions. This is informed learning and discussion. Then go out and seek a church. I found mine 3 years after I first saw it. I was just not ready then. It was no more than a mile from my home in Papatoetoe, and it had a sign out front that had this message on it: "What is missing from CH__CH? -- UR!" After months of 'seeking' the 'right' one, I yet again passed this sign, and knew I was ready. I did a U-turn, and went back to it. I walked in, sat down, asked my questions and KNEW I had come home when Pastor Rex walked out and spoke to me!!! At last.
Terrible things are being done in the name of Religion and with todays technology, questions such as yours have and will be asked.

Long though it has been, I hope I have shed a little light in your world. I wish you an interesting journey. You are asking questions, so you are already on it's path.
Get a nice cold bottle of wine, with cheese and crackers and while away a few hours by visiting this excellent site. a few cones are good too.
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There are many interesting paths that we tread through life! On those paths there are pebbles, sand, stones and other interesting obstacles. It's how we handle those obstacles, that show us the 'true' path that we have trodden! They represent the past in our present, and shape the ways of our futures.

In one degree or another, you are ALL right! Just in different and with varying 'perception' of your own environments. There is no right or wrong answer, there are just answers. Right or Wrong. Does it matter? Answers are just opinions, as is mine. Opinion is a celebration of our right to 'free choice'. Freedom however, has a price. And yes, in one form or another, we ALL PAY IT!!

[Hollandica]

I wonder if there was a god, what determined what god looks like? Is his body deformed by long-term residence in zero-gravity conditions. Is his skin tanned, is it a he or a she to start with, white, black, yellow, purple. Is God human, all that kind of things.