Religion, war and violence

[Oneironaut]

Look, it doesn't even matter if Jesus IS the Son of God, according to him I'm still going to Hell no matter what I do, and so is anybody who has ever "blasphemed the Holy Ghost."

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Fuck the Holy Ghost. It's a stupid idea that doesn't even make any sense. There. See, I'm going to Hell and accepting a million Jesuses won't change that.

[F L E S H]

Mellow Man, Moses DID NOT say an eye for an eye. And Christianity is very much the religion of PAUL, many experts believe that christianity has its present shape only because of Paul and his interpretations. In fact, Peter was initially against spreading Jesus' thoughts to non-Jews, because he felt that the Jewish background was essential.

Oh, and a note on Jesus' name, in Hebrew his name is Joshua, it's just that we kept the Latin form of his name because it's more identifiable...

All hail Joshua!

[MudFu]

But your claims of faith for all those things is simply disingenuous(to me), Are you positing that you simply believe those things with no evidence(not the god one). Which means not taking into account ANY factual information such as the nature of humans to help each other etc. That wouldnt be faith it would be a logical conclusion (however if you do have faith in all those things without any shred of evidence then yes it is faith otherwise nope....) And , power to you , I just prefer to perceive a mistake and correct rather than assuming it will fix it itself.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. I have faith, I do not need proof in everything. As I said, my faith is strong and it makes me a better person.

Also, my faith is behond the bible. Quotes from the bible that was tampered with is not anything to change a mind over. But this is my P.O.V, not that it is right but it is right for me.

[Oneironaut]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. I have faith, I do not need proof in everything. As I said, my faith is strong and it makes me a better person.

Also, my faith is behond the bible. Quotes from the bible that was tampered with is not anything to change a mind over. But this is my P.O.V, not that it is right but it is right for me.

So if your faith doesn't come from the Bible, and it doesn't come from observable evidence, then where does it come from? The only thing I can think of is you're making it up and convincing yourself it's true.

[MudFu]

No see where I got my ideas and beliefs from was the Bible. Its hard to explain. You see I learn of many beliefs from all religions. I think all religions have truth and lies within them, you just need to find the truth. When I was younger, I had faith in the bible, but I grew up and leanrt that the Bible is altered. Why should I have faith in something altered? So I took my time and thought out all my old beliefs. What I came to the conclusion too was that God is our creator but not in the sence we are told. God created the earth and let us grow. Evoloution is no a far fetched idea. God wanted us to achive but God didn't want to hand everything over to us and make everything easy. God knew that we would grow and learn and God is pleased with that. I also believe that there is no hell. God is all powerful right? Well how can their be a war with the fallen angel is God is all powerful? I think the truth is that we repeate our lives over and over again until we reach the state in which we have accepted God and have nothing but faith. A murderer will repeat his life (not doing the same thing, he will just be reborn) and will be give unlimited chances of rebirth until he achives what God wants him/her to achive. My ideas and my faith, thouse is mixed from many religions and many non religions is mine. I may not be right but who ever really knows if they are right? My faith is not made up, it is simply a mix of many.

[Oneironaut]

What I came to the conclusion too was that God is our creator but not in the sence we are told.

Prove it.

God created the earth and let us grow.

Prove it.

Evoloution is no a far fetched idea. God wanted us to achive but God didn't want to hand everything over to us and make everything easy.

Prove it.

God knew that we would grow and learn and God is pleased with that.

Prove it.

I also believe that there is no hell.

Prove it.

God is all powerful right?

I suppose if there was a God, he would be all-powerful by definition. But as to the existence of God? Prove it.

Well how can their be a war with the fallen angel is God is all powerful? I think the truth is that we repeate our lives over and over again until we reach the state in which we have accepted God and have nothing but faith.

Prove it.

A murderer will repeat his life (not doing the same thing, he will just be reborn) and will be give unlimited chances of rebirth until he achives what God wants him/her to achive.

Prove it.

My ideas and my faith, thouse is mixed from many religions and many non religions is mine. I may not be right but who ever really knows if they are right? My faith is not made up, it is simply a mix of many.

Yeah, it's a mix of many people's made-up thoughts. There's no evidence for any of it. You seem to have cherry-picked things from different religions that describe the way you would like the universe to work, and then convinced yourself that that's the way it really does work. How can you say things with such confidence when you admit you don't have any evidence that any of it is true?

That's what I mean when I say we need to abandon this faith stuff. It just encourages people to make shit up and pretend it's true, instead of looking for the real answers by observing everything we can observe. Observation is a reliable way of obtaining knowledge, in fact the only reliable way. Faith (that is, pretending what you want to be true is true) is not a reliable way of obtaining knowledge.

[MudFu]

See I don't think you got anything from anything posted in this topic. Faith. Faith is not logic and it can't be proved. Proved to me that there is no God. You can't. You only have faith that there isn't. I suggest you stop making this small attemts of putting down others faith. I do not try to force my faith on you so leave my faith alone. Their is a line at which debate and being a plan asshole is made. Your starting to cross that line. Observing will only get you so far, much about this world you can not observe.

[Oneironaut]

See I don't think you got anything from anything posted in this topic. Faith. Faith is not logic and it can't be proved. Proved to me that there is no God. You can't. You only have faith that there isn't.

That's not really the same thing. I don't believe in the Abrahamic God because I believe it has certain self-contradictory traits. For example, how can it be both omniscient and omnipotent? If it knows everything it's going to do in the future, does it have the power to change it's mind? Does it even have free will if it already knows what it's going to do?

But I cannot possibly contradict all the thousands and thousands of different conceptualizations for gods that people have come up with. When I say I don't believe in God I mean it in the same way that I don't believe there's an invisible unicorn in my room. I can't prove there is no invisible unicorn, but it seems so incredibly unlikely that I can rule it out for all practical purposes, especially since there's no evidence to suggest the unicorn is here. Shouldn't the unicorn be knocking things over? Shouldn't God be intervening in our world in measurable ways?

I suggest you stop making this small attemts of putting down others faith. I do not try to force my faith on you so leave my faith alone. Their is a line at which debate and being a plan asshole is made. Your starting to cross that line.

If you don't want to discuss beliefs, feel free to leave the Spirituality forum. But here, we talk about our different worldviews and why we think the way we do. I happen to think that the world would be a much better place if people stopped making shit up and believing in it so fervently. Of course everybody has the right to believe in whatever they want, but that means I have the right to believe that it's stupid to believe in things for which there is no evidence. When you can explain to me the difference between believing in things for which there is no evidence and making shit up (or copying stuff other people have made up), maybe I will let up on this faith stuff. But the two are absolutely indistinguishable.

Observing will only get you so far, much about this world you can not observe.

What's the point in wasting our time guessing about what things might exist that we can't observe? If we can't observe them, they have no impact whatsoever upon our lives, and there's nothing to suggest they even exist. And when one person pretends that he's right and everybody else is wrong about the unobservable, that is what causes conflict which often turns violent. I just want to prevent that by encouraging people to embrace critical thinking over blind faith.

[MudFu]

You do not do something or care for something because it has no impact on your life. I care for people who have no impact on my life. It is the same thing. Just because it haves no major impact, it does not mean it is less important.

As far as me leaving this forum, no. I know what this froum is for, but you do not only talk about your views you put down others. You have insulted my ideas because they do not fit your way of thinking. You can share your views and still be considerate to others and their views. When you choose to bash others views thats when you become the asshole. You have started to bash my views and others views. Its funny how you said "when one person pretends that he's right and everybody else is wrong" when you are doing the same. You have no proof we are right and we have no proof you are wrong. I still do not say someone is wrong, I will say if I disagree with them and point out my idea but I will keep and opened mind. I have openly said I do not have weither I am wrong but I still have Faith. It never hurts to have faith.

Oh and just because it "should" be doing something, doesn't mean it will.

[Oneironaut]

You do not do something or care for something because it has no impact on your life. I care for people who have no impact on my life. It is the same thing. Just because it haves no major impact, it does not mean it is less important.

No, those people do have an effect on your life, or you would not even know of their existence. When I say we shouldn't argue about things which have no impact on our lives, I mean things which really have no impact whatsoever on anybody's life. Like debating the size of a planet nobody can observe in a galaxy too far away to see as anything more than a smear. Nobody would debate the size of a planet that they can't even see, because it's pointless. Similarly, it's pointless to argue whether we reincarnate after death or go to eternal bliss, because there's no evidence that either one is the case. In fact, there's no reason to suggest that consciousness can outlive the brain any more than heartbeat can outlive the heart.

As far as me leaving this forum, no. I know what this froum is for, but you do not only talk about your views you put down others. You have insulted my ideas because they do not fit your way of thinking. You can share your views and still be considerate to others and their views.

Even when my views are that religion is a waste of time and needs to be eliminated? I'm always going to offend someone taking that stance, and I don't fucking care. Religion needs to be dealt with, just like all other forms of oppression like racism, sexism, fascism, etc. I am not considerate of the beliefs of racists, sexists or fascists, so why should I tolerate the beliefs of somebody telling me to bow down to the rules of a totalitarian dictator of the universe (God) who they can't even prove exists?

When you choose to bash others views thats when you become the asshole. You have started to bash my views and others views. Its funny how you said "when one person pretends that he's right and everybody else is wrong" when you are doing the same. You have no proof we are right and we have no proof you are wrong. I still do not say someone is wrong, I will say if I disagree with them and point out my idea but I will keep and opened mind.

So your open mind acknowledges that it just might be the case that all this faith stuff is bullshit? I highly doubt that.

I have openly said I do not have weither I am wrong but I still have Faith. It never hurts to have faith.

Quite the contrary. Look at all those people whose faith is so strong they go to faith healers instead of real doctors practicing science. That's really harmful. Look at the people whose faith is so strong they feel they have to crash airplanes into buildings to please their God. That's harmful. Religion isn't going to stop killing until we kill it.

Oh and just because it "should" be doing something, doesn't mean it will.

So? It's up to you to prove to me that God exists. If there's no evidence for it, I'm going to assume it doesn't exist, like the invisible unicorn.