Thanks to adfsghjn, sobriquet and glowis for the trips, its always intersting to read them. I tried non-extract again about half a hour ago, nice new pipe, expensive new jet lighter with 2 inch flame , took 3 massive tokes and held them for 20 secs each..... NOTHING. Its really getting on my nerves now because there is just no effects at all, I cant even get hold of extract easily, i dont have a credit card and my local bong shop wont sell to me so.... where next, shall i keep trying or shall i really try and get this extract, oh and if so what potencyfor a first timer on extract: 5x, 10x, or 20x?