God cannot exist: Proof

[padro420kmk]

god gave man free will.

[Oneironaut]

Emphasis my own...

This is a horrible argument. You could drive a tractor through the holes in it. I wouldn't grant you either of the premises of the argument. It is not neccessary that if God is, than man is a slave. Rather it could be the case that God has been, I don't know, misinterpreted perhaps. Second, "man can and must be free", it's very poetic, but can it be supported? Do men in captivity cease to be men? I assume "free" implies freedom from control, but if this is the case, welcome to the social contract. You sold your freedom for a place in society, so obviously men must not be free. (ergo, God must exist?)

I'm with you in sympathy I think, but that's no excuse for shoddy logic. thoughts?

How can man ever be free with an omnipotent being of any sort in existence? How can freedom exist if any choice can be overriden at any moment by the whims of the totalitarian dictator of the universe? How can freedom exist if there is an entity that says "okay, you can do what you want, but if you don't do what I say I have a special place full of fire and smoke to torture you forever"? How can freedom exist within a Christian universe, where God clearly states in the Bible special rules for slave-owners, essentially condoning the practice and even saying it's okay to sell your daughter intno slavery? The whole idea of monotheism is submission. Unquestioning submission to a higher power. That is the exact opposite of freedom. You cannot contradict God's will. No matter what you decide is right or wrong, it doesn't matter because God already decided that for you, and you just have to agree or burn forever. And people have the nerve to call that free will. If God is, man is a slave, just as with any other totalitarian dictator. Does man have the power to democratically choose what morality is? No, God dictates that. Does man have the power to achieve freedom from this "shepherd"? No, the Lord is your shepherd and the Lord is all-powerful. The Lord is your master and you must do what the Lord says or suffer eternal damnation.

But when we look at the world today, we don't see people's choices being overriden. If there is an omnipotent deity that knows the difference between right and wrong, it certainly isn't doing anything about it. Why? Because man does indeed have free will, and in a universe where man has free will an omnipotent being is impossible. If I truly have free will that means there is nothing that can force me or threaten me to act in a way I don't choose to. It means, therefore, that there is no Hell, no Heaven, no God, no morality intrinsically woven into the fabric of the universe. We are free to choose for ourselves what we want to do with our lives. To embrace God is to reject freedom.

[Oneironaut]

I wonder if God has evolved, as Human Beings have evolved.

That is impossible. Evolution is a process of natural selection. Those creatures that have benefits for survival in their environment, and thus are more closer to the ideal of perfection, have a better chance of survival. How could God become more perfect if he was already perfect to begin with? And who would he have to outlive? How can natural selection happen in a single entity?

P.S. I just found another contradiction in the Christian conception of God. In Hebrews 6:18 it says "it was impossible for God to lie". Some omnipotent deity that is. But I guess I must just be interpreting that one wrong, right? It doesn't really say that. The Christian response is so predictable: "I think what God meant to say..." Or is that one of the parts of the Bible that doesn't count because you don't like it?

[beachguy in thongs]

You're looking at God in a religious manner, you should acknowledge that God created us to run amuck, instead of devoting our lives to worship, or anything but what God gave us for spiritual exposure to Him- Herb. Herb has three kids and works down at the laundrymat and discusses the Universe with his wife Julia. But that's another story. What's Hebrews? I'm not Hebrew.

I don't understand why someone would say it is impossible for God to lie. Well, maybe you're right, he does lie...

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

god = all of our "individual minds" (or egos) combined.
everything percieved = nothing
nothing = consciousness, or ability to percieve thought.


i hope that's simple enough to understand

[Polymirize]

How can man ever be free with an omnipotent being of any sort in existence? ... The whole idea of monotheism is submission. [Lets be fair here, technically speaking, the whole idea of montheism is actually one god. Nothing more. Although its interesting to see where you decide to take that...] Unquestioning submission to a higher power. That is the exact opposite of freedom... [That depends on whether or not its your choice to submit. I notice you haven't even actually addressed my argument from the previous post. I assume you're familiar with the social contract. What do you think? By submiting to it do we void our freedoms or is this merely an expression of choice?] No matter what you decide is right or wrong, it doesn't matter because God already decided that for you, and you just have to agree or burn forever. And people have the nerve to call that free will. [I believe that's called predetermination actually. You're confusing your terms. Not that many Calvinists around these days, at least not in my area. You have this amazingly christian intuition of thinking that God sees and judges all, and so would find it necessary to take actions at all. I don't share this particular intuition so you'll have to explain to me why this would be the case?]

If God is, man is a slave, just as with any other totalitarian dictator.
[I believe I've already discredited this, but you haven't addressed my earlier post at all really in this text, so if you can justify this premise, please do.]

But when we look at the world today, we don't see people's choices being overriden. [How would you even know? I mean, if we grant the concept of god as all powerful, couldn't he just change the way it appears to you? But that's aside the point, because I reject your entire notion of a godfigure in any way conflicting with free choice. If you can demonstrate why it would, I'd love to hear.] If there is an omnipotent deity that knows the difference between right and wrong, it certainly isn't doing anything about it. Why? Because man does indeed have free will...

Edits and all bold are my own, hopefully nothing's out of context...

Erminaut, you're so focused on destroying the christian paradigm you obviously haven't realised that I'm not christian, and so I find your arguments rather misplaced. You're not developing any points you're merely attempting to combat rhetoric with anti-rhetoric. but we could be having a mature and developed conversation instead... I look forward to hearing back on this.

[psychopixi]

Oneironaut

I understand better now what you were getting at before, but I still think there's a big leap you're making. I get what you're saying about how free will couldn't really exist if the Christian God did - free will isn't really free will if your actions are based on fear of punishment. I think it's a big jump between accepting that, and accepting that based on that idea, God can't exist.

The way I see it, if your actions are based on fear of punishment, that's not really free will. However, just because God is omnipotent doesn't mean to say that he will choose to intervene and force someone to make the correct decision. Nor does he apparently force them to believe in him (and hence in the reality of Hell).

We can have free will, and the Christian God could exist. One does not preclude the other. Even if God is omnipotent, that doesn't mean that he will force us to act in certain ways. If we can choose (even if the choices are not that great) then we have free will. We can choose to obey God's will, and go to heaven, or we can choose to disobey. Just because the second option is not appealing, doesn't mean that it's not an option.

[P.E.N.G.U.I.N.]

Maybe it's just 'cause I'm stoned that that didn't make much sense. Um, get back to you tomorrow.

Yeah, Let me rephrase what I said.

God indirectly created this universe and set everything into motion. I knew some people, probably Oneironaut, would flame me over it. So I defended myself against two things they could say about it.