No ID Card, No Job

[pisshead]

they want people to riot...that's why they're buliding up a giant police state while training the police to be militarized and to engage the population...

this can be defeated peacefully...as long as people wake up to government sponsored terrorism, that trick can't be used...the people will know who stands to gain and who's perpetrating the big terror attacks...and it will cease to work.

people just need to take a real hard look at exactly which direction this country is going, no matter which fake side gets a puppet installed.

"Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a day; but a series of oppressions, begun at a distinguished period and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing [a people] to slavery." ---Thomas Jefferson

[ermitonto]

people just need to take a real hard look at exactly which direction this country is going, no matter which fake side gets a puppet installed.

I agree completely. Too many people in this country have their head so far shoved up their asses not to be able to see through Bush's veil, or not to be able to see that Kerry wouldn't have done much different (he supported the American terrorism campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq after all). The idea that politicians routinely lie to us in this country is so common that it's become cliché. And when we continually catch them lying, we continue to support them! How many different excuses has the Bush administration had for these wars? And how many of them have been exposed as clear and utter bullshit? It seems we gave up finding Osama for overthrowing the Taliban (which, after a brief look at the history books, it was discovered that we put in power in the first place). We gave up finding Iraq's WMDs for destroying an ally of Al-Qaeda. When we found out Iraq wasn't one, we had to overthrow Saddam just because he's an Evil Freedom-Hating Dictator� (even though there continue to be many other countries without oil run by oppressive dictatorships that we frankly don't seem to give two shits about, and then there's Saudi Arabia which does have oil but they're nice to America and sell it lots of oil so their dictatorship is good).

I will not carry a card for liars. I am burning mine.

[Psycho4Bud]

American terrorism campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq?

[ermitonto]

Yes, didn't you notice how the US is killing all sorts of innocent civilians, I mean, "collateral damage", to accomplish political goals, through such techniques as "shock and awe" (i.e. blow shit up to make them afraid)? I think that's the definition of terrorism.

[Psycho4Bud]

Yes, didn't you notice how the US is killing all sorts of innocent civilians, I mean, "collateral damage", to accomplish political goals, through such techniques as "shock and awe" (i.e. blow shit up to make them afraid)? I think that's the definition of terrorism.

It's funny you mention terrorism since that is the leading cause of death in Iraq today...not Iraqis rebelling...but outside terrorists from all different countries.
As for the "Shock and Awe", 800 guided missles in two days with military, power, and water as key points of attack. Not civilian! WW2 was a war of civilian death, Korea, Vietnam....we're in the age of smart bombs...could have been alot worse for the civilians 20 years ago.
Maybe if good ol' Sadamm didn't put civilians around crucial areas there wouldn't have been the death toll.

[ermitonto]

So just because they try to minimize the number of civilian deaths, it's okay. That's like saying the ETA isn't terrorist because they alert the buildings they put bombs in so people can evacuate before they go off. And if you're attacking their power and water sources, well, that's pretty clearly terrorism as well, since people can't live without water, and a hospital without power is pretty ineffective. If I put bombs into American power and water stations, that would be considered terrorism. But when the US military does it to a country full of brown people, somehow it isn't? You're just killing them indirectly, which isn't any more justifiable.

[Arioch]

Psycho4Bud, you say terrorism in Iraq is from outsiders from different countries, but many Iraqis believe that it's their Sunni countrymen - former members of Saddam's regime - that are mainly responsible. So what evidence is there?

You also assert that none of our targets were civilian during the Shock and Awe invasion - that is simply not true - there were civilian targets included in the destruction of Iraq's infrastructure. I know of at least one such civilian building that was deliberately targeted.

- sorry to drop in out of the blue, but I have been reading this board for a while, and had to say something on this subject. I tend to be pretty skeptical about things, so I try to find primary sources, like what the Iraqi people themselves have to say about terrorism. The second thing I asserted - about civilian targets - is from a firsthand account, from a person too close to me to doubt. I'm not saying the U.S. deliberately targeted civilians, but there were non-military targets that could have had civil servants in the building just doing their jobs when it was bombed.

[Psycho4Bud]

Psycho4Bud, you say terrorism in Iraq is from outsiders from different countries, but many Iraqis believe that it's their Sunni countrymen - former members of Saddam's regime - that are mainly responsible. So what evidence is there?

You also assert that none of our targets were civilian during the Shock and Awe invasion - that is simply not true - there were civilian targets included in the destruction of Iraq's infrastructure. I know of at least one such civilian building that was deliberately targeted.

- sorry to drop in out of the blue, but I have been reading this board for a while, and had to say something on this subject. I tend to be pretty skeptical about things, so I try to find primary sources, like what the Iraqi people themselves have to say about terrorism. The second thing I asserted - about civilian targets - is from a firsthand account, from a person too close to me to doubt. I'm not saying the U.S. deliberately targeted civilians, but there were non-military targets that could have had civil servants in the building just doing their jobs when it was bombed.

Alot of the bombings does come from the Sunnis but I believe they target more of the Iraqi military and Police than random car bombings...etc... Remember, one of the main points of Zarqawis letter to Bin Laden was that a civil war between the Sunnis and Shi'ites was their last effort. Something like the Shi'ites were dogs and Sunnis were dumb enough to be led.

SOME civil targets were part of Shock and Awe and is was to destroy the infrastructure. Part of the plan to basically destroy the Sunni moral. It's not like what is being implied that we levelled towns and villages.

Innocent people did die but what other choice was there. Hell, the U.N. would have eventually lifted sanctions if France, Russia, Germany, and China had their way. Then what?

[Psycho4Bud]

So just because they try to minimize the number of civilian deaths, it's okay. That's like saying the ETA isn't terrorist because they alert the buildings they put bombs in so people can evacuate before they go off. And if you're attacking their power and water sources, well, that's pretty clearly terrorism as well, since people can't live without water, and a hospital without power is pretty ineffective. If I put bombs into American power and water stations, that would be considered terrorism. But when the US military does it to a country full of brown people, somehow it isn't? You're just killing them indirectly, which isn't any more justifiable.

Well, maybe we should have gave Sadamm the nuke he always wanted and his sons some school girls to rape. What is the brink you have to be brought to in order to save, lets say, the Iraqi Kurds and Shi'ites from genocide? Or is it a matter as long as France, Germany, Russia, and China are getting theres, who gives a fuck?

[Arioch]

So freedom is messy? And we had no choice? We had a choice to support Saddam or not back in the 80's; we had a choice whether we were going to take him out during Desert Storm, and all through the 90's. We've had a lot of choices along the way, and I think our government has made a lot of poor choices. I'm glad Saddam's out, but I'm sad that things are so "messy" right now. You know what would be really pre-emptive? To quit supporting rightwing dictators before they get out of hand.