religion is a "state of mind"

[Wheemer]

It isn't acceptable to minimize his teachings in that way... If that is how you live your life, by those few words, then that's your prerogative. However the most important thing that you must do, if you say you are following Jesus, is to love him (god) with all your heart. When you develop this love relationship with god it becomes easier to follow his path. In every action and circumstance you can be assured that if you love god before anything, god's grace will follow you.

The duality of the human thought process is false. The ego, or the "I" that people refer to is a mental concept with no basis. The only way to follow Jesus is to suppress duality and the ego.

[HvyFuel]

I'm not trying to offend anyone but if Jesus existed his words were written by others many years after his death. His exact words are lost forever so the intent behind the words are all that truly remains.
If your faith gives you strength and peace, more power to it. My only concern is that many religious people feel that those who do not share their beliefs are wrong rather than just different. I have the greatest respect for your gods but I don't want or need one thanks.

btw, thanks NowhereMan, I try

[Razer]

Try to put all your biases aside for a moment and ponder this question seriously for a moment. "What if there really is a God?" One that not only can be known about, but that actually wants to have a relationship with you. The point for me isn't what you believe about Jesus or even what I believe about Him, but that if scripture can be relied upon then He is a reality. The Bible is a record on which we could accept or reject His testimony to us. If you reject it out of hand (for no good reason, including the quipy ones) then the barrier is manmade isn't it. I would conceed that no person or church has a completely accurate understanding. Nonetheless, the Bible gives a reliable an testable account about God (and He is the one making the claims, not me). It is a work that is demonstrably divine rather than human in origin. The mountains of evidences for the reliability of the Bible are often not even seriously inquired into before pronounced false, and that usually for dubious reasons at best. The problem with the human condition, as outlined in Scripture, is not that the only true God can't be found among the myriad of religions nor that He has been proved a myth, but that people's hearts are progressively hardened toward Him. There are sound answers of logic and reason to satisfy the most hardened critics' questions, but alas, it is to no avail if their heart won't receive it. Are you one who does not want to be confused by the facts? If so, good luck with that. If you are sincerely seeking, He will find you. And if you care what I believe, then I will be happy to share my faith with you and the reasons for it.

[HvyFuel]

Biases and beliefs could be said to be the same things. I am a human adult therefore I have biases, we all do whether we choose to acknowledge them or not. How would you feel if someone produced a book now that they said had been written under dictation from God, all other books were wrong, and this new book was the only book you should believe in?
I may be wrong but I think the general reaction would be to think they were either blaspemous, lying to gain money or power, or just plain mad.
As I have said already, I have every respect for your faith but I feel you are "one who does not want to be confused by the facts".
When I was younger I actively sought god, now I actively seek scientific, provable fact. Although there are passages in the bible (and the koran, and the torah) that can be compared to physical events in the earth's history the reported words of gods and prophets will always be heresay evidence.
Mankind, in the most part, has always needed other worldly forces to lean on in times of struggle. (The crutch of the masses - Karl Marx) Unfortunately faith led to the crusades, the inquisition, innocent people being burned as witches, kamakazi pilots, suicide bombers, football stadiums being used for mass executions, 9.11, and today a western civilian being beheaded on video 'in the name of god'. If you could stop for one second and admit that your faith isn't the only one maybe we could learn to talk instead of trying to kill each other.
Did you know that the only difference between the DNA of a chimp and that of a human is the tiny part of the strand that allows speech. We are just a talking animal. In the time scale of the planet we aren't even a blink. So what makes humans believe if a god existed he, or she, would devote themselves to caring for such a selfish, murderous, destructive animal? If a loving, caring god created man why make it the only animal on earth that murders for fun?
I'm not expecting you to answer these questions I'm just showing you religion from my side.

Peace, and may your god be with you.

[Razer]

Likewise HvyFuel, peace to you as well.

The deal though on the science vs religion is a false dichotomy. Why does all religion have to be false for science to be true? And what do you mean by science? If you are refering to 'empirical science' which is the form which is evidential, then of course you are restricted to that which you can observe or repeat without fail under identical conditions. Since you can neither observe nor reproduce this ancient so called history, it is not science but theory. An important distinction. Therefore your claim based on 'in the time scale of our planet' really is just a presumption not proved by evidence but is the theory itself. It is a form

"It looks old, therefore its obviously old" is hardly scientific reasoning. Carbon dating is hardly an exact science either. Conjecture at best. Even the so called scientific community does not hold hard and fast to these ideas as a whole. They are ever ready to jetison the old when it is discredited by new discoveries. The problem in the case of evolution though is that if you conceed that the evidence does not support random chance formation of life, then you must make way for a supernatural explanation like a creator. This would be the "cardinal sin" to 'psuedo-'science beleivers. But many are not even willing to consider this possibility due to the baggage they bring to the table, so they reject it under the guise of science. God is atleast one of the posibilities, but if you exlude one of the possibilities from your observations, then it can hardly be called science, now can it.

You may have studied when you were youger, but its never to late to consider new information that you haven't been privy to before now. Have you really studied so much that you can exlude creation or have you just not heard convincing arguments that set right with you intellectualy. I believe there are scientific explanations to your questions. Don't through the baby out with the bath water either. The tragic misdeeds done in the name of faiths is also no proof, but rather passionate emotions expressed about the misdeeds of humans. Their are just as many examples of barbarism by atheists, humanists, and the like. (Karl Marx' philosophies were embraced by a tyrant who murdered millions of his own countrymen.) There are endless stones that could be hurled at both sides, but the bottom line is that being human is the common demoninator in them all. It just goes to show the level of mankinds depravity in general.

I will conceed the fact that Christianity is exclusive. Jesus does claim to be the only way. But the fact that their are other mutually exclusive faiths does not mean that none can be true. All I have heard you say so far as evidence against the Bible, is that it can't be relied upon or must be believed with blind faith. Neither assertion is accurate. Evidence for the reliability of the Bible is ample and easily found and understood for those who don't just dismiss it out of hand. There are many Scientist who believe in Creation. Several are leaders in their fields and faculty of Some of the USA's most prestigious Universities.

So we could banter back and forth if you like, but I would prefer you offer your evidence or inquire about an area of faith that your are interested in having addressed. The answers are available for those who want to know.

[HvyFuel]

Yes, my science is the type you don't like where things must be physically proven. Preferably by scientists who aren't employed by the church, or even the faculty of church funded universities.

I have never said I deny the possibility of god, you however can not argue from an open view point because you cannot admit the possibility of no god. Admitting that god may not exist would be a direct threat to your faith therefore Darwin must be wrong, carbon dating must not work, and the church must employ scientists. For every scientist you can name that believes in 'the creation' I'll name fifty that don't.

But, on to a slightly different point. As a christian, and I'm going to generalise wildly, Why do Christians quote the Old Testament? If you accept Jesus as the Christ aren't his teachings more important? 'An eye for an eye' and 'turn the other cheek' don't sit well together.

I ask this because as a man of science I can happily accept the teachings of Jesus and if christians weren't still half jewish I might even accept christianity.

[NowhereMan]

i respect some aspects of sunday.
and i do not have rituarals 'like get up and be at a location' (church) at a given time to meet with other like minded people( christians,catholics ect.. ect..)unless you count get up and roll me one and sit here alone and think about the day ahead and the day behinds undone things,that my pray time.
i replect on things and make amends to what i percieve is right or wrong,
if ive done regretable things,then it dawns on me right away without much effort i need no group of singlers in robes to enlighted me i can crank out some tunes and do that fine here,
so my church is in my head for all practical purposes,(state of mind)

im not a quote 'educated man", (college) in any field have no degrees,
i have my almighty HIGH SCHOOL Diploma that made my Sunday School teacher mommy very proud to have her baby get and put in a drawer for 20+ years after.
It did get me into the US Army two months out of high school in 1983,(political footnote Reagan,,,,,,,unemployment was worst than 1933 depression) Beriut Bombings happening when im in Boot camp >>>I was hunting Kadafi's komenies and arrofats was the mind set they put out in training,my dog tags siad /say NO REL PREF (no religoius preference)


im glad that we can discuss this religion thing with out conflicting views making us all cry out obscene things to others to knee jerk words out i call it.

i really have a interest in other religious discussions,about rituals mainly but its such a touchy subject ya know
so i guess
we have sunday school here of a sorts,
would that be a religious event ,
we ponder the acts of man and Other world being(s),=religion
i would like to ask about what and why certian things are done but would seem I would be asking from a piont of view that could offend who i ask,
which i do not want to do
well i close my (preaching hhehehe)you could call it,and say

all views are welcome but lets all be civil about things and remember that we are brought up in our enviroments with influencing factors that change in every instant.
thanks and have a good sunday
peace

[WeeeeeBong]

I gotta throw in my 2 grams here.I don't think anyone has any evidence of any religion being true or not.Likewise we have no evidence to disprove most religions truth or reality.I think that is why religion is based on faith.To believe in something greater than ones own self.I think a good litmus test of any religion is to see if it meets the criteria of the golden rule and if it does,for me, that is enough.
Religion was invented by man.I'm not sure but I think even the christ looked down upon organized religion.
I myself am a very spiritual person but hardly religious.I think 99.9 % of the worlds woes are caused by religion.Thats not un-natural if one believes that religion is a man made concept.
I'm with Gandhi when he says that taking of life in any way is simply wrong.
Yet many christians believe themselves to be devout in their worship and belief think the death penalty is ok and yet oppose abortion.
I think the 1st commandment is: Thou shalt not kill. I have not seen the articles or amendments to that commandment that says in effect....except when..
Most people on this planet could never turn the other cheek or give up their lives rather than to kill in self defense.And yet I believe it is better to die than to kill for any reason.Could I actually do it if that presented itself to me?
Probably not.Reason and thought would fly out the window in the face of animal survival but it does not change the idea of what is right and what is wrong.
Gandhi was once asked why he rejected the christ.He answered that it was not the christ that he rejected and that, in fact, he loved the christ.It was just that so many christians are so unlike their christ.
I believe that if everyone just lived by the golden rule we'd all have every good religion covered well.
So I don't live religiously but try my best to be a spiritual being in that I do believe there is an infinite wisom and intelligence far greater than myself.

[HvyFuel]

NWM, I have no idea why I haven't seen your post until now, but I'd love a truly open religious discussion with anyone who wants to join in.

WBong - People of all religions and no religion kill. Ghandi's words, IMHO, are comparable to those of Jesus on all subjects I can bring to mind. If you wish to prove that religion should exist these men do it without the need for miracles. Humans need religion so they should have it. Unfortunately humans need more than one religion which causes disagreement. I have great faith, in humans. Either we'll learn to live together or we'll blow the world up. And I don't believe anyone willing to do that would ever be given the capability of doing it. (Bush, yes, I know, but he's on a lead)
Therefore, in our great, great, great, great, grandchildren's days, I pray to the great God Kaneh-Bosem, we might be a tiny step closer to not caring what religion people are.

peace

[NowhereMan]

man
did i do all that.
kidding
i do think think i know how i feel anyway,most people think they do too
are we right or wrong to believe or not .
tune in at the end and we all shall see
i reckon.


wait its thursday,,,, lets smoke up and think more on it for a few days
peace

NWM, I have no idea why I haven't seen your post until now, but I'd love a truly open religious discussion with anyone who wants to join in.

WBong - People of all religions and no religion kill. Ghandi's words, IMHO, are comparable to those of Jesus on all subjects I can bring to mind. If you wish to prove that religion should exist these men do it without the need for miracles. Humans need religion so they should have it. Unfortunately humans need more than one religion which causes disagreement. I have great faith, in humans. Either we'll learn to live together or we'll blow the world up. And I don't believe anyone willing to do that would ever be given the capability of doing it. (Bush, yes, I know, but he's on a lead)
Therefore, in our great, great, great, great, grandchildren's days, I pray to the great God Kaneh-Bosem, we might be a tiny step closer to not caring what religion people are.

peace