Water wash before ethanol extraction of cannabis oil?

[Jack Charles]

There are many solvents used to make hash oil. Among them are butane, naptha, isopropyl alcohol, and ethanol alcohol, which is food grade drinking alcohol. This thread is concerning only the ethanol alcohol extraction of the essential oils (hash oil). The other toxic chemicals are not feasible for me and i don't care how many people say all the bad stuff is evaporated etc. I don't care and I will never use those chemicals as long as I live unless I learn a lot more about chemistry and have access to pharmaceutical grade solvents. Anything short of that it is out of the question.


Now to the main question and discussion point of this thread. I know the main reason people knock using ethanol as a solvent is because it also extracts some of the other water soluble alkaloids or ingredients like chlorophyll, etc. and creates a darker green less pure (thc percentage wise) finished product.


But.... Since chlorophyll is water soluble and thc is not, why can't you just do a water wash on the cannabis plant material for a couple days to extract the chlorophyll and various other impurities and then strain that and then do the ethanol extraction on the remaining plant material after that.


This, in theory, would result in a purer finished product, which I'm sure would probably still have a slight green color to it unless you really let it soak for a long time. It would also remove most of the pesticides and other shit that might be on your bud. I only buy organic veggies and hate all the chemicals floating around in the modern world. And also I just had severe surgery and want to use this for medicinal purposes. It doesant make sense to me to use toxic chemicals on something your trying to use for health purposes.

Sorry to all you people who like to use the chemicals to make your hash oil. I'm not telling you it's wrong. I just don't trust it. I know butane is quick and makes very nice looking honey oil. But I've also heard that even after a full purge there can be trace amounts of heavy metals left over, I don't have sources and this may not be true. But hearsay like that is enough to deter me. You will never convince me. I will never use those toxic chemicals on anything that is going in my body no matter what.


I haven't seen anything on this specifically on the Internet even after scouring it for days for this specifically so I figure it warrants a thread. The closest thing to this I've seen is a post I read on the 420 magazine website about water curing bud, but not on making hash oil. But it seems like pretty much the same concept except the bud is still used for smoking afterwards and not extracted to make hash oil.



So I guess my question is: has anyone had any experience with this type of method or know anything concerning this? I'm relatively new to making oils and am just curious. And am also wondering why this method hasent been used to my knowledge, because it seems so simple and straightforward. It also eliminates the use of any toxic chemicals. So why hasent anyone done it? And if they have why isent it everywhere on the Internet? Because this makes the chemical people's arguments why the chemicals should be used completely useless if it is as true and as feasible as it seems to me... But I'm not a chemist or anything so I might be missing something. I don't think so though.

If this is true the only benefit I can see for using toxic chemicals that aren't pharmaceutical grade is the speed of the extraction process. And I'm sure you could still get a little higher thc content with butane or something. But it's not enough to be worth poisoning myself. At least to me.

Any feedback or input would be greatly appreciated. Ill be doing an extraction this way on an ounce of some good herb either way.

Jack Charles Reviewed by Jack Charles on 04-20-2013. Water wash before ethanol extraction of cannabis oil? There are many solvents used to make hash oil. Among them are butane, naptha, isopropyl alcohol, and ethanol alcohol, which is food grade drinking alcohol. This thread is concerning only the ethanol alcohol extraction of the essential oils (hash oil). The other toxic chemicals are not feasible for me and i don't care how many people say all the bad stuff is evaporated etc. I don't care and I will never use those chemicals as long as I live unless I learn a lot more about chemistry and have Rating: 5

[Weezard]

:clap:

[Jack Charles]

Ok so now it's time for a report on the final goods. I boiled everything away. Then heated it in a hot oil bath that fluctuated between 240 to 275 for about 15 mins after all the solvent and water were evaporated. I was seeing those very small bubbles at the end that are co2 I think. Then I took it of and because I thought it would be difficult to handle or scrape up. I reconstituted it with just a ill alcohol. And got about 75 ml. Of finished product. I then proceeded to take 1/2 teaspoon which would be 1/30th of the material made from an ounce.

And what happened from there is I went to bed and slept for 24 hours! I as awake for like 1 hour and a half before I fell asleep but that's what happened after that. I never felt high or anything because I figured I might have fell asleep during it. And boy I tell ya I had some wierd ass dreams, I then woke up at 8 in the morning, having ingested the medicine at like 3 am. And boy when I woke up, probably because I had to go to the bathroom. I could barely walk. I couldent make It to the bathroom. I had to Sid down and meditate to calm down and ease my nausea otherwise I felt if I got up again I would faint. So somehow I just laid/ sit there on my bed. Trying to calm my mind and loose the nausea so I could make it to the bathroom. Now I don't even remember going back to sleep or if I waited and used the bathroom, the next thing I remember is waking up to everyone cooking dinner at like 530 pm! Ha. I was feeling less nauseous but still had a little of a drunk walk at this point. I got up fixed a plate of dinner. Ate it. Then went back to sleep haha. Now I just woke up for good I think 21 hours later.

So since I was asleep most of the time. I'm guessing that the extraction process worked. Because I don't know what else would have put me to sleep for so long. Maybe that was too much I took? But I figured for Someone's first time tincture, especially mine, couldent be all that potent lol. But who knows maybe there is more than 30 doses in there. Just dident expect more than that from just an ounce.

[Marzfisch64]

Check out my tutorial if you are interested in ethanol or isopropyl hash oil! These techniques make a very good hash oil that gets you ripped!
http://boards.cannabis.com/concentra...-no-green.html

[Marzfisch64]

Check out my tutorial if you are interested in ethanol or isopropyl hash oil! These techniques make a very good hash oil that gets you ripped!
http://boards.cannabis.com/concentra...-no-green.html

And this entire tutorial is based on things i learned on Skunk Pharm Research! =D

[Jack Charles]

Thanks for the link dude, that looks pretty cool. That's interesting and pretty awsome that there is way to purify the solution with the saline. And how it sucks the unwanted stuff right out. I'm assuming this will work with just ethanol alcohol as well? Because I have much to learn before I become comfortable with using chemicals like that. I think I am going to be just studying things like oil infusions. Ethanol extractions and using lipids to extract. Another solvent I was thinking about today that is food safe that I have used before to extract mescaline from San Pedro cactus was d-limonene. But food grade d-limonene which as far as I understand it is just a citrus solvent derived from oranges. But they do sell it as food grade. It is used for cleaning because the citrus is so powerful. But you could also drink it straight up if you want and you will be fine. It worked well on the cactus so I wonder how it would work on cannabis. So many questions I have. So many experiments yet to try! I want to stick natural. I'm afraid of the chemicals. Maybe it is because of my ignorance of chemistry and pharmacology. But it would take a lot more research and proof and evidence and experimentation for me to somehow become more willing to try the chemical extractions. Also access to pharmaceutical grade solvents is a must. I like all the natural stuff though. It's the only way to go for me.


Sounds like a good method though if its possible to substitute the ISo for ethanol.

[Marzfisch64]

Actually, funny that you mention Limonene. this link will blow your mind and excite anyone who can understand it!
http://boards.cannabis.com/concentra...available.html

[Weezard]

So I'm thinkin I may have missed one very important step. As far as what I have just been reading other places are concerned. I did not decarb the bud in an oven beforehand. And went straight to the water soak then the ethanol soak. So Weezard, you say that just by heating the filtered alcohol extract. After I am done soaking the non- decarb'd bud in it, it will activate or transform the THCA into the psychoactive THC?And will be fine? Or if I just heated the mixture while the bud is still soaking in the ethanol will I be able to sufficiently dearb the bud, even though it is wet and submerged in the ethanol?

Nope, it would take a very long time because Ethanol boils at a lower temperature than water. ~180℉.
It takes >6 hours @ 212℉. so . . .

What I tried to say was, once the solvent is almost gone, the boiling point goes up and there are large bubbles.
(You must continuously stir at this time to release all the ethanol vapor.)

You can heat the oil to ~220℉, and as the oil heats up, it's Don Ho time!

That is, tiny bubbles start to form.
I use a coffee warmer for this step.

Continue to hold that temperature until the tiny bubbles taper.
Do not overdo it.
Always leave a little THCA and CBDA, they are medicinal.

Those bubbles are CO₂ .
They are tiny because they are much denser and heavier than alcohol vapor.
(By the way, if you see medium sized bubbles at ~ 212℉ that's the water vapor.)

So, as you can see, it's a visual process.


Because from what I have been reading it sounds like the weed needs to be heated to around 240 degrees Fahrenheit for at least a half hour. But does the bud need to be dry and exposed to air for it to decarb properly? Or can it still decarb while its soaking? It sounds like you are saying it will be fine and will decarb just when I heat it to evap the solvent.

No, but after the solvent is completely purged you are dealing with a whole different set of physical properties..
Higher boiling/vaporization point being the most germane.

But I just want to figure this out. Because I don't want this whole batch to just be a waste. I spent pretty much my last money on this ounce to make this medicine for my pain and it would be a shame if it ended up just being all THCA and not containing the pain killing properties I'm really trying to get out of it.

If i screwed it up its my fault though. I dident do sufficient research before hand and it may bite me in the ass now. I guess that's just what happens though.

I do hope I can salvage it though. Because I don't have months for the long soak like you were saying to fully decarb.

No worry, you can prolly rescue this
.
I respect that you jumped right in, ya got fire.
And,it's a lesson learned, so, a double profit.

I just put the jar of the cannabis and ethanol in a double boiler for like 20 mins just to add some heat hoping that would decarb the stuff a little bit. If it is possible while its in the state it's in. Instead of being dry bud in the oven its the ground up bud soaking it ethanol. I don't know if it can decarb like that. And I know the double boiler method can only reach 212 degrees.

And the ethanol will keep that down to below 190 until it is gone. (what I tell you 3 times is true )

I would have heated it longer but I'm at my parents house just for the mean time after my surgery so I can have people around to help me get around and what not because I have a bunch of broken ribs and metal bars in my chest now and I needed to rent a hospital bed and all that shit. And they couldent get it into my appartment because its on the top floor. And I don't have a car so I need people to drive me around. But anyways. I can't be stinking up the house. My mom knows what I'm doing because I told her out of respect, and she understands. But my step dad would be pissed as hell if I was doing this in his house.

But it doesant matter. if I need to do something that's gonna stink up the place to finish this decarb then that's fine. I just dident do it for too long because he's up and about tonight. If I need to do it for a longer period of time I will just wait for a more opportune moment. If I have to I will just tell him what's up but he's just old schools and hates weed. He's still caught up in the reefer madness type propaganda. And I would rather just avoid that whole confrontation. I'm just worried about this whole decarb thing I forgot to do first. And hope it can be salvaged. If anyone can help me out I would once again be so grateful you can't even begin to understand. I hate having to bug everyone with stupid questions. And a never ending stream of them. But I just want this to go right so I can use it to help myself. Not that I have it all that bad and I'm not looking for pitty. I just want this medicine to work. Cuz I hate taking narcotics even though its pretty heavy pain.

Gotcha, relax!
It is now becoming clear why you have eschewed inhalation titration in favor of a tinctureization.
Since I was once in your battered shoes, I'll be tickled to be of assistance.

First:
If the buds went full term, (lots of amber glands), there is already a percentage of decarbed THC and CBD present.
It's an ongoing process that happens rapidly, on-the-fly, when smoking.
And more slowly at lower temps.
So, your ill-conceived tincture is almost certain to have the desired effect to some degree.
And B:
As to degree?
I'd go so far as to advise extreme caution when figuring out the proper dosage.
Start small and remember that it can take more than an hour to take effect when ingested.
So, the rule is:
Eat a gob, wait an hour.
Lather, rinse, repeat.

Aloha,
Sorry to hear about the owies.

Weeze

However, you will not be thrilled with the taste.

[Shovelhandle]

^^^ditto. hope your recovery is rapid and complete, Jack.

[Jack Charles]

Weezard, thank you so much for being here to help me through this process and answering my questions. I truly hope you understand how grateful I am for your help and understanding.

It sounds like I should be able to salvage the medicine and be able to complete the decarboxylation process properly now. I'm assuming that I can decarb just the oil and I don't need to do it on the plant material itself after it has been washed/ extracted by the ethanol because by the time I get the the point where I will be able to bring the temperature up high enough for the decarbing to work, The straining will have already taken place and the plant material with be gone.

As for getting the temperature up high enough to decarb the oil. I think I have an idea. Obviously I cannot use a double boiler for this part because the water will only reach 212 which isn't sufficient unless I want to do it for 6 hours like you said. But I figured I could maybe use the same concept; but instead of water being in the base, I could use oil of some type. Like canola oil or olive oil. Because both of these oils can be heated to up to over at least 350 to 400 degrees Fahrenheit before the smoke point is reached and the process would be compromised. But I would have no need to bring it even close to that point anyways, I just need to bring it up to like 230 or 240 or whatever. Which I'm pretty sure would be possible. I would just heat up the oil and use my thermometer to make sure the temperature is good and get the temperature stable at a good temp and make sure the heat source will be stable as well. Then I could take the cannabis oil I have and place it in the oil bath in a Pyrex container. Then heat it for like 20 30 mins and it should be good then theoretically? I don't have a coffee warmer so I figured this could also get the job done. I just have to be careful with the oil and make sure the apparatus isn't flimsy or anything. But I will take my time constructing it and getting it properly set up and the heat stable in the oil before I start the decarb of the cannabis oil.

Does this sound like it would work?
After the soak is done, Which probably could even be today it sounds like since its been a day in the ethanol and apparently it only takes 6 minutes to get all the resins out, I could just strain out the plant material. Then evap to oil. Then use my double oil boiler method to decarb the remaining oil at around 230-240 degrees for 20-30 mins. Even though the oil won't be boiling it will just be hot as shit sitting there.

Thank you for your kind words as well shovel handle. I hope the same thing. And it seems to be going that way so far, so so far so good as they say, haha!