chloramine is the devil bobby boucher!!!!!

[Mal420xl]

sorry about the waterboy reference but it makes sense kinda. after 30 some odd seedlings and mountains of reading and tearing my hair out i might have actually figured this out.. maybe.
every seedling i have started and yeah it is really around 30 or so since early november has developed yellowing and rapid chlorotic/necrotic leaves within 2 - 3 weeks ultimately killing them all.
No matter what i try the perk up and then get worse and die off. always showing signs of some kind of lockout..every one of them. its been driving me crazy. im religious about the ph so i fix that in every gallon of water i use since it comes in at 9.2. no matter what soil, how i mix it. same result every time. i read a thread about someones ph constantly changing after they had adjusted it and didnt add anything and the ph changed/reverted. i hadnt really considered it but i checked the batch i had made 4 or 5 days ago and ill be damned if it hadnt started climbing back up from the 6.5 i adjusted it to anywhere from 7.4 to 8+!!! i knew it wasnt the soil well at least not the ocean forest as long as the water going in is in the 6's it will run off in the 6's, miracle grow on the other hand is all over the place...cuz its crap. the one constant was the water so i checked the state and local water reports and found out that they started using chloramine instead of chlorine about 8 years ago. id heard about chloramine but didnt give it much thought....

the problem with chloramine is its really hard to get rid of, its ammonia and chlorine mixed so it lasts much longer.....anybody else remember that mixing those 2 was bad juju from 7th grade chem class? it doesnt evaporate like chlorine, you cant boil it out, it wont distill out. the ammonia has to be separated from the chlorine to convert the chorine into whats called "free chlorine" as opposed to "combined chlorine" so it can be filtered. that requires charcoal block filters and a chem filter that will also remove the ammonia byproduct. i dont know much about ro yet i couldnt get past the 2 or 3 to 1 waste ratio but i guess as long as it has charcoal filters and i think i read a membrane between 1 and 5 microns it should take it all out.

chloramine as far i can tell has no direct effect on the plants but i am pretty sure it has been the cause of the ph problems. and that makes sense really. its purpose is not only as a disinfectant but a ph adjuster as well.
its going to be very difficult to beat something thats intended to keep LARGE volumes of water exposed to rain that meters in at about 4.4( Weezard our volcano is always spewing, unlike yours which is terrifying and awe-inspiring ours is hideous, man made and ghastly) at a constant ph level with much of anything...it works so well i could calibrate my meter with my tap water..9.2 every time +/- one point.
i have to guess it builds up in the soil, im sure it must, thats going to wreak havoc on the plants since the soil ph is going change with every watering or feeding.

right now im skating by with my latest crop by waiting until the soil is almost desert like before i give them water, but i think its only prolonging the build up. the plants are teetering on the verge of yellowing after watering and greening up once the soil starts to dry out.
so now i guess i need to look into filters, not gonna do ro i just cant get around the waste. buying water is out of the question at least for the foreseeable future. anyone using filters that can gimme an idea of whats a decent one?

Mal420xl Reviewed by Mal420xl on 02-27-2013. chloramine is the devil bobby boucher!!!!! sorry about the waterboy reference but it makes sense kinda. after 30 some odd seedlings and mountains of reading and tearing my hair out i might have actually figured this out.. maybe. every seedling i have started and yeah it is really around 30 or so since early november has developed yellowing and rapid chlorotic/necrotic leaves within 2 - 3 weeks ultimately killing them all. No matter what i try the perk up and then get worse and die off. always showing signs of some kind of Rating: 5

[low_rdr]

Whats the source of your seeds?

[Mal420xl]

other than somewhere in northern mexico i dont really know. if youre thinking genetics, im skeptical only because im using the same seeds as a friend of mine who has no problems like this at all but he does have a well and filters his water as it comes in to the house. that and i have germinated just a shitload of seeds in the past few months. as long the ph of the solution is between 6.2 and 7 they germinate every time and start growing really nice. the first time they get watered, and ill admit the first few i was watering too often but i corrected that and they still have the exact same issue at about 2 weeks. the more wet the soil is the faster it happens. i have used just about every soil i can find...and it being winter that doesnt leave much. so far foxfarms ocean forest has worked the best. seed starter, light warrior doesnt matter as soon as they get water they start getting the signs of yellowing at the tips and edges. let them dry long enough and that seems to back off they green up hit them with water again and thats just water i havent had any get to the point where i can add nutes yet, and the yellow starts to show again. everything seems to point to the water and from everything i have read chloramine appears to be the most viable culprit. ill have a better idea after i do some run off checks to see if the soil ph is creeping up like i think it is.

[polishpollack]

Why are you willing to buy a filter but not bottled water? A gallon of distilled water is less than a buck and better for your plants. Go buy distilled water. If you're problem really is water, this will solve your problem.

[Mal420xl]

because with a filter i get 300-500 gallons for about $35 thats like .11 per gallon. distilled is about .85 a gallon, plus the cost of my gas because it isnt right next door and i drive a big pick up. and no i wouldnt be getting 300 gallons at a pop but even that would ultimately be cheaper. as dry as it is here in the winter i go thru a fair amount of water anyway i'd be at the store all the time. i am trying to make sure thats what it is. im switching to bottled for now until i can get a decent filter. i also have three pots of soil im checking the run off. one with plain tap but ph'd water, one with filtered(crap brita but it lowered the ph by one point) ph'd water and one with distilled ph'd water. if im right the one with tap water should see the ph increase over time. we'll see tho.

[painretreat]

This link might be helpful: http://boards.cannabis.com/current-e...ml#post2241676 pr

[Weezard]

PP makes a good point.

And while I don't think Chloramine is the culprit it does seem that water is the key here.
I'd just buy a couple large dustbins, line 'em with plastic, chop into a downspout, and wait for rain.
Even highly acidic rainwater beats groundwater north of PH8.

It no rain there?
Electric distillers are available, but costly to feed.
If you have roof space, I'd suggest a solar still for low rainfall areas.
They are easy to build. Google it.

As I stated, Chloramine is not the bad guy here.
It can kill fish, but it actually seems beneficial to my plants. (kills waterborne pathogens)
However, that's assuming that your water supplier knows how to use it properly.
From your readings, they do not!
That, or it's time for a new meter.

Chloramine can be removed from your water if you wish.
Just buy some ascorbic acid, (vitamin C.), and use it as your PH down.
It breaks Chloramine down without harming tropical fish.

(Or, you could go to a pet store and pay 30-40X as much for the same thing with a different name.
That's what I used to do until I read the bloody label. )

At the least, I'd buy enough bottled water to confirm my diagnosis before proceeding to costlier remedies, yah?

It, only takes a minute to pop one out of the pot and look at the rootball.
Suggest that you do that, and if you see areas with a white, waxy looking substance, get back to me,.
That might be the actual culprit, root aphids!

Aloha,
Good luck
Weeze

[Weezard]

"At the least, I'd buy enough bottled water to confirm my diagnosis before proceeding to costlier remedies, yah?"

"i also have three pots of soil im checking the run off. one with plain tap but ph'd water, one with filtered(crap brita but it lowered the ph by one point) ph'd water and one with distilled ph'd water. if im right the one with tap water should see the ph increase over time. we'll see tho."

Well, dang!
You're way ahead of me on this.

"Nevermind." -E. Latella

[Mal420xl]

im thinking im way behind just about everyone on this. i am gonna check for root gnats but i think its too cold to worry about those pests just yet. it rains but just very acidic. oh and the meter is new. i read the report on the change to chloramine and pushing the ph up to 9.2. they claim it will keep microbacteria under control for a longer period of time. well see what the ph's look like in a week or so on the pots i have, ill be mighty surprised if the one doesnt end up very high.

[low_rdr]

I agree with weezard - Get a few gallons of bottled water just to check and make sure thats the issue. I seems pretty obvious that it couldn't be much else, but better safe than sorry. After you determine that its the water FOR SURE and you install your new filter, even if your PH is right, use both sources of water on isolated test plants - If your results are close to equal, there ya go.

The reason I asked about the source of the seeds (and it was a valid question) was because there are some strains that are VERY finicky about water/nutes while others are not. Another question I have for you is if you have tried (after your PH down of course) adding 1/16th of a feeding of nitrogen. If your balancing your PH properly and still think it's chloramine, use a Vitamin C tablet (dissolve it first) and put into your water.

If you think the problem is Chloramine I do believe the filters are a bit more than $35 because you need an activated charcol filter with a vitamin C additive (that's how you kill the chloramine) HA, I just read weezards entire post, and yes ascorbic acid is what you need.

If you insist on continuing to use your tap, the bottle of ascorbic acid will go alot further than your faucet filter.

On to the next subject, sourcing water. Using your current gutter system you can obtain up to 300 gallons of water per year (depending on the size of your home) by simplying routing your gutters through a filter and into a reservoir.

This WILL solve your chloramine issue, but takes a few hours to setup. I personally don't use this setup, but have seen it implemented before for plant water.

At any rate, I wish you the best of luck