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  1.     
    #21
    Senior Member

    A world without money

    Quote Originally Posted by Txbizpro
    there is more debt than there is money. Think about this concept for a minute.
    Well, no. There is an equal amount of debt to money (fiat) because one is a representation to the other. With no debt, there can be no money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Txbizpro
    How is this even possible? It's possible because of the brilliant invention of interest
    It's possible because of the infusion of credit into that system before it catches up with itself and bankrupts the world. As for interest, it used to be such a horrid crime the idea of making money off of money. It was called usury, and could be punishable by death. However... as time moved forward it became more acceptable because with the lending of money involves the inherent risk of loss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Txbizpro
    Instead, realize that if everyone paid back their debts including governments, there would be no money left in circulation.
    Right, because there would be no money left because debt is the literal representation of debt. no debt = no money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Txbizpro
    This is purely a hypothetical because as I said earlier everyone's debts can't be payed back. This is because collectively, we owe more than we have.
    From a large scale? The problem is that for long term items such as mortgages or gov debt where the interest ultimately far exceeds the Principal, a lot of extra money needs to be created in order to pay that Interest. In order to maintain a functioning economy and society, that rate of foreclosure needs to be low which also prevents other issues such as credit freezes and run on banks. In order for this to happen, even more debt (money) needs to be created which will satisfy todays demands for fiat money and to cover the previous debt. I'm sure you can see the problem... this just leads to more and bigger debts with more interest ultimately needing to be paid which leaves the system in an ever escalating spiral of mounting indebtedness. Only the time lag between money creation and its repayment keeps the shortage from catching up with itself.

    Speaking on the individual level? No, not everyone's debt can be repaid. You cannot repay a pool of principal and interest from an overall supply containing just principal.


    A better question to ask the ones at the top:

    1 - Why are our governments choosing to borrow this money, at interest, from private banking establishments when it could just create all the interest free money it needs for itself? (For the record, fiat (government issued money) only makes up about 5% of total overall money supply)

    2 - Why should we create this money as debt at all? How come we cannot create money that will circulate permanently and does not require being perpetually RE-borrowed at interest in order for the money to exist in the first place? It should be reminded that a money system cannot possibly survive from perpetually accelerating growth as the basis to build and sustain an economy. Should be clear that this perpetual acceleration of growth and sustainability go together like oil and water.

    What we should ask ourselves:

    What about our current monetary system makes us, and the economy, so subject and needed on perpetual growth? What HAS to change in order to allow the reasonable creation of a self sustainable economy?

  2.     
    #22
    Member

    A world without money

    Seems to me that money, ultimately, is originally a marker of work done and a common denominator of exchange. It is far easier and more efficient to trade standardized coinage for a farmer's bacon than to (1) figure out that the farmer wants/needs some nails to complete a new pig pen, then (2) find someone who has some excess nails, then (3) figure out what THEY need in exchange for the nails.

    Historically, problems with money arise when (1) people no longer deal directly with sources of product, but deal with service-providers/middlemen (wholesalers, distributors, retailers, etc.) who need to profit from their transactions (thus driving up product cost) to remain in business; and (2) banks that not only charge interest on the money they loan (a legitimate function) but also INFLATE the money supply by multiple loans which exceed their supply of money (causing inflation).

    In addition, the whole concept of money will shortly, possibly within a decade or two, become largely impossible. Reasons: automation, 3D printing, robotics, all of which will result in MASSIVE (90%+) unemployment, but essentially "free" or dirt cheap goods in many areas.

    When automated machinery becomes self-repairing, or gets made and repaired by OTHER machinery, the labor cost essentially becomes zero.

    When raw materials and food are mined/farmed by robots made by robots made by robots, the materials cost essentially becomes zero.

    When products, from clothing to cars to foods, are created by 3D printers running on "boutique" software (think the apps currently being produced for smart phones) the middlemen start to disappear.

    The answer? I really don't know. Perhaps something like the "Social Credit" scheme discussed in Wikipedia. Social credit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Just my ponderings. YMMV

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