The resurection is the key!

[joker121]

Joker121, forgive me if I was hasty to defensive positions. I am sure you can see why I have felt attacked in previous posts.

My faith is the cornerstone of my reality. I am able and willing to defend it, but would rather share it with those interested. Your non-agressive approach is refreshing as well. I wouldn't let what people think of you (even those people who go to church) keep you from seeking out God. James 4:8 says "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." I can admit easily that many in the clergy have offended and many christian's may have their nose in the air. There have been atrocities commited in the name of Christ. None the less, we should not throw the baby out with the bath water. If you know what I mean. Scripture is can only be found true or untrue on it's own merits and not by the example of fallen mankind (even church goers.)
Personally, I didn't care for Bill Clinton getting blow jobs in the oval office, but I'm sure you can agree that the transgression did not bare on whether the decisions he made from that office were right or wrong. They need to be judged on their own merits as well and not by his other misdeeds. Likewise, you ought to consider the Bible for its own evidence.

The fact that you are bisexual does not bother me. You are free to live your life as well. I do believe though that it is a risk filled lifestyle. I don't condone it either, but I can accept you (which doesn't mean accept all your actions) without either of us being perfect. Did you read the article in the link about what the Bible says about homosexuality? If so, any comments?

Thanks for being respectful in your query. I hope you will find me to be the same.

I understand why your on the defensive man. It's ok, I've been going throuhg sort of a spiritual revelation over the past few days, and I love it. I'm sort of into the more out there stuff, but I think in the end, we're all worshipping the same god man.
I understand your views regarding me and my sexuality, and I'm glad to hear your feelings put thta way. I've heard it put many more hateful ways, and I think you got it right. Expressing yourself, without shoving down peoples throats.
I think we all jsut need to calm down, and seek spiritual and inner peace. I'm not saying that I've attained moksha(nirvana, enlightenment) or anything like that. but I've grwon over the past few days in terms of spirituality, adn my relationship to people, and the earth.
While I do find your quotatations and such from the bible intersting, I stopped relying on ancient texts long ago. I fetl, that personally I had to look to myself, and find out what I thought about god/creator/divine spirit/yaweh/etc.
I've found that this omnipotent spirit exists in everything, and is always with me. I wouldn't define it as Jess, or god, or naything reall, just an all loving force that is in all things, and is the essence of the universe. It loves me, and shows me how to love everyone.
I like to write 'Namaste' after some of my posts. It is a Hindu term,though I am not Hindu, that means I bow to you and your divinity. I guess this would be the Christain equivalent of seeing Jesus in someone. I find a reason that every person, and thing is beautiful. I love those who would hate me, and those who wouldn't. I'm not perfect about it, but I try my best. I'm only human, and it would be foolish of me to deny that as a human I am imperfect. I guess that I have fond the true meaning of the word Namaste, and it means something to me now, it doesn't jsut have a 'cool meaning' it is the menaing, and the feelings that I hold behind it, that are important to me. I mena when I say it and write it.
Regarding Bill Clinton, I totally agree with you, that whole thing, seemed liek a huge media distraction stunt to me. It really didn't matter, and was blown wayyy out of proportion. Although, it did make for some great jokes lol!
I checked out your site, and I liked it, b/c I had never heard any more reasoning behind the whole gays and the bible thing, beyond Soddom and Gammorah(spelling?). I just wonder how far 'not condoning' homosexuality goes. Is it just not condoning, or does it go farther? Again, I am making these jusgements based on other people I know. I guess I'm just trying to say that I think that some people can misconstrue that message.
I used to be Catholic, and then I got tired of that, b/c I wasn't feeling anything while doing it, and I say the church, and all of hte other christain options that surrounded me, as being filled with hypocrisy. I then tried to go a buddhist path. That was good for a while, but there was one problem. Buddhism has their own littel ten commandments called the eightfold path. It says no smoking, and no drinking. That was my one problem. I didn't want to be a part buddhist or anything corny like that, and for a hile I was in a tailspin, not knowing what or how to worship. Then I realized, that I was boxing myself in to think that I had to have a religion. I realized, that I should try seeing what made sense to me.
I wouldn't reccomend this to everybody. I cna see where most people would only half heartedly go after spirituality like this, and seek to create their own religion/ belief system, with practically no rules. I obeyed my conscience. ANd now, I have found happiness, contention ,and I feel connected with the divine wisdom of the universe.
I guess there is one quote that really sums up my feelings on religion "Religion is the opiate of the masses"-Karl Marx.
Some peole get wayyy to into it, and don't even stop to think for themselves. Taht is why I wen my own route.
I hope I didn't ramble too much. But it was nice to get a civl response, peace and love man
Namaste(I really do mean it)

[Razer]

Joker121, clearly you are a gentle spirit. I am sure I could learn much from you in that regard. My temper is certainly one of my downfalls. I've been planning recently to do a Scripture search on anger with my oldest daughter. She just completed reading the entire Bible recently. A feat not even I have accomplished yet. She was not put up to it. Chose it of her own accord.

Anyway, so as not to leave my self unclear about not condoning homosexuality. I mean it in the same way that one of my close friends drinks and drives regularly and I don't condone it. I don't think either issue is harmless. But, I do not reject my friend and I would not reject you either. From my understanding of things, both are detrimental practices for the participant and possibly others. It's my concern for my friend that makes me wish he didn't do that. Hope that helps.
I must admit that being called a homophobe is a hot button for me. It is such inflamatory labeling. ( I am not saying you said it, others have because I am Christian and stand on my belief that it is a wrong practice.) Nobody who knows me has ever leveled such an accusation, because they know how I care about people. It's only come from hot headed rhetoric launchers. Just because I am opposed to the practice does not make me a hate monger. In fact, it couldn't be farther from the true reality.

Being categorized as just another religion is also a turn off to me. The terms Religion and Christianity mean various things to various people. I can see why a general spirituality is appealing to you. It sounds like you may have had some experiences that turned you away from ' The Church '. But, it is not the church that should be our attraction nor our excuse. It is the person of Jesus that is at issue in Christianity and not the broad continuum of the sect's practices. We can agree that there is a Supreme Being it appears. Yet I would suggest that it matters more of exactly who It is. Particularly if He is trying to reach you as His book says. I know all the tired arguments for why Scripture can't be trusted, but the truth is, these arguments have all been put down soundly. You have to ask yourself, is it the people in the church and there actions that have turned you away, OR can you say that you have honeslty searched for God in the Bible and found sound reason why He isn't there? I believe there is a strong chance that you are rejecting His imperfect people more than you have found Scripture to be unreliable. Just a guess, of course, I don't know your heart. Only you and God do. I would urge you to search your heart though. Besides, I don't think that peace is the ultimate goal. I am talking about a relationship with a personal creator who wants a personal relationship with you. Relationships are not always peaceful.

I would be glad to carry on our discussion if you like. If not, then I hope that the only true God will find a way to reveal Himself to you and that your heart would be ready to receive Him.

[joker121]

Thank you for hte offer razer, but I think I have found what would be labeled god. I find that I am learning many of the lessons that many people tried to hammer into my head when I was in the churhc, but now that I am left to myself, I find that they are all coming to me. I do feel a realtionship with the creator/divine entity/etc. I have found something htat is greater than myself, and full fo love. Something that will always be with me werever I go. I can't really put into words, what it is I've found. It is sort of like trying to fraw a four dimensional object in the third dimension. I cna only show you certain parts of it, other parts are beyond comprehension.
I understand your stnace on homsexualtiy better now. I must say, I have never heard it put that way. If you don't mind my probing into your beliefs, I would liek to know your stance on abortion, and of course, your reasoning behind it.
I have tried reading the bible many times, but never could bring myself to read it in its entirety(spelling?). I have read the book of revalations a thousand times, its the most interesting, and most of genesis. I also read all of habakuk, but it si the shortest book of the bible. I find the book of psalms to be particularly interesting, just becasue it is basically poetry, and I like to see that in religion.
Namaste razer.

[Razer]

It's probably not hard to guess my position on abortion Joker121. That is probably one of the most volatile issues facing our country right now. I know that many have deep and personal feelings about it. As do I. It is one of the most important issues to me. If you are up to hearing my personal views on the subject, I will be glad to write you an email. That is, if you care to share your email address. I am including a couple of article links here for those who would like to hear a well reasoned case against abortion.

A Biblical view of abortion
http://www.equip.org/free/CP1302.pdf

Is the Pro-Life position unfair?
http://www.equip.org/free/CP1301.pdf

These articles represent my view, but there are personal aspects to my position that I would not put out here for the vultures, so if you are sincerely interested, let me know an email to write to.

PS Joker121 what did you find unique in my previous comments. You said something like, you never heard it put that way before. Could you elaborate?

[joker121]

[email protected]

I've never really heard the arguments rationalized the way your rationalize them. And you seem to be more accepting of epople's right to choose for themselves. Most people I know will flip out if people don't act like thye do in terms of religion.

[Stooj]

Um, Christian or not, we're all reaching for the same thing. We all feel it. We try to give words to it, but spirituality lies within the realm of imagination and emotion. I believe it to be a right brained thing, and if that's the case then it defies left brain activities such as human logic and rational understanding. Maybe this is why people panic and try to justify their ideas of religion over someone elses. It really is difficult to describe, and if you feel happier, if you feel like a better person, if it connects you in a more intimate way with other people, then beautiful. Go for it. The rest is in the details, and that can go on forever.

Just my two cents towards a debate thats been goin on since the dawn of man lol.

Do you really think we can all come to the perfect answer on a thread on the internet?

Stay open guys, all anger does is hurt people and obstruct some interesting conversations. (Also, its a great indicator of fear. 'I'm angry b/c I'm scared, now let me wave this big stick in your face so you can't tell.' )

oh my god I can't stop typing take this coffee away. devil bean....