WW Thai log

[Sunmaid]

Subscribed. You have some serious patience. Can't wait to see the results!

[Rusty Trichome]

Got to thinking about this while e-mailing Fox Farms about the situation...

Since you just transplanted into a 20 gallon pot with fresh FFOF, what does your soil probe say is the difference in ph between the old rootball and the outside edge of fresh soil you added during the transplant? Since the fresh soil hasn't been depleted, ammended or aged, there should be a discernable difference between the two.

[Rusty Trichome]

Pretty good a customer service at Fox Farms...

I wrote them this afternoon with your basic background, where our plants were from (acidic Indonesian soil) and your desire to keep the ph down. Hopefully it helps, but here's the reply e-mail I just recieved:

Hello Rusty,

It sounds like you guys have a good grasp on the principles of soil science and indoor gardening. Hopefully I can add a few pieces of information, both practical and technical, that will help find answer to the underlying questions in your e-mail. The first area of concern is testing the soil pH.
Ocean Forest is pH buffered with oyster shell to be in the 6.3 to 6.8 pH range. The most reliable method for home gardeners to test their soil pH is to gather some samples from different plants, at different depths in the soil; mix the soil with an equal amount of purified water; let stand for an hour and test with a digital pen. Most soil probes, for pH or moisture, are very inaccurate and unreliable. I would not give a soil probe reading much value.
So, the initial soil pH is going to be in the previously mentioned range. The pH can change upwards or downwards over time due to several factors which may or may not come into play. Acidification can be caused by the degradation of peat, the accumulation of acidifying salts, rapid microbial activity, and the loss of buffering capacity. A rise in soil pH is usually associated with water quality; water hardness and alkalinity can build up over time, even with the application of nutrient solutions at the proper pH range. Salts can raise or lower the pH of the soil depending on the selective uptake of plants. Carbonate Ions in the tap water (well water also) can buffer acidity and build up in the soil, raising the pH of the soil over time. Oyster Shell is also mainly carbonate atoms, and will buffer any acidity as long as is stays in the soil. This website has some great in-depth resources on soil chemistry and pH:

SSC 102 Soil Chemistry

Plants that evolve in acidic soils have adapted their diet to be demanding of Iron (available) and sensitive to Phosphorous (un-available). This is because of the inherent availability and un-availability of those nutrients at low pH ranges, and those plants will be angry if Phosphorous is applied heavily, or the soil pH is too high. Most plants have evolved to grow in slightly acidic soils (6.5) where nutrient availability is generalized.
I hope this information is useful and helps explain our products and the pH regulating activities used by gardeners. Let me know if you have any more questions about this or any other topic. Good Luck!


Joe Alcorn
Customer Service & Technical Support
P.O. Box 787
Arcata, CA 95518
(707)-443-4369 main
(707)-269-4458 fax
[email protected]

Crap. I ammend my water ph with phosphoric acid. Guess it's something I'll need to keep an eye on.
Anyway...I hope this is as useful to you as it is for me. I'll take a look at his provided link in a bit. Time for some Ding Dongs and a soda.

[canniwhatsis]

Pretty good a customer service at Fox Farms...

I wrote them this afternoon with your basic background, where our plants were from (acidic Indonesian soil) and your desire to keep the ph down. Hopefully it helps, but here's the reply e-mail I just recieved:

Hello Rusty,

It sounds like you guys have a good grasp on the principles of soil science and indoor gardening. Hopefully I can add a few pieces of information, both practical and technical, that will help find answer to the underlying questions in your e-mail. The first area of concern is testing the soil pH.
Ocean Forest is pH buffered with oyster shell to be in the 6.3 to 6.8 pH range. The most reliable method for home gardeners to test their soil pH is to gather some samples from different plants, at different depths in the soil; mix the soil with an equal amount of purified water; let stand for an hour and test with a digital pen. Most soil probes, for pH or moisture, are very inaccurate and unreliable. I would not give a soil probe reading much value.
So, the initial soil pH is going to be in the previously mentioned range. The pH can change upwards or downwards over time due to several factors which may or may not come into play. Acidification can be caused by the degradation of peat, the accumulation of acidifying salts, rapid microbial activity, and the loss of buffering capacity. A rise in soil pH is usually associated with water quality; water hardness and alkalinity can build up over time, even with the application of nutrient solutions at the proper pH range. Salts can raise or lower the pH of the soil depending on the selective uptake of plants. Carbonate Ions in the tap water (well water also) can buffer acidity and build up in the soil, raising the pH of the soil over time. Oyster Shell is also mainly carbonate atoms, and will buffer any acidity as long as is stays in the soil. This website has some great in-depth resources on soil chemistry and pH:

SSC 102 Soil Chemistry

Plants that evolve in acidic soils have adapted their diet to be demanding of Iron (available) and sensitive to Phosphorous (un-available). This is because of the inherent availability and un-availability of those nutrients at low pH ranges, and those plants will be angry if Phosphorous is applied heavily, or the soil pH is too high. Most plants have evolved to grow in slightly acidic soils (6.5) where nutrient availability is generalized.
I hope this information is useful and helps explain our products and the pH regulating activities used by gardeners. Let me know if you have any more questions about this or any other topic. Good Luck!


Joe Alcorn
Customer Service & Technical Support
P.O. Box 787
Arcata, CA 95518
(707)-443-4369 main
(707)-269-4458 fax
[email protected]

Crap. I ammend my water ph with phosphoric acid. Guess it's something I'll need to keep an eye on.
Anyway...I hope this is as useful to you as it is for me. I'll take a look at his provided link in a bit. Time for some Ding Dongs and a soda.

Thanks for posting that!!!! :hippy:

[WashougalWonder]

Since you just transplanted into a 20 gallon pot with fresh FFOF, what does your soil probe say is the difference in ph between the old rootball and the outside edge of fresh soil you added during the transplant? Since the fresh soil hasn't been depleted, ammended or aged, there should be a discernable difference between the two.

There is a difference, there was also one watering. So the stuff had a week to adjust. The new is 5.8-6.0 or so. So the entire mass is evening out through normal diffusion/osmolality. Remember I identified the problem before the transplant.

Now there is the possibility the meter is way off on the pH. But it does show a trend, regardless to higher pH. There has to be some salt in my water supply that is causing this, dang I do not want to go back to RO

It is looking better with the main top leaves reaching up to the light again, so something right is happening, and I think it is also greener.

[WashougalWonder]

Need to correct the statement. Soil in the edges is 5.0.

Also note.....Fox Farms says pH of 6.5 in bag, soil tester shows 4.5
Soil tester shows water 4.5, but is by drop test 6.5.

Trend there too????

Looks better - greener - today

[Rusty Trichome]

I'd think so. Looks like the soil probe is a couple whole points off. Beware of trusting that it is 2 points off at higher ph values though. It might not be a sliding-scale difference at higher ph's. (might be one point difference, might be 3 points difference)

I'm formulating a plan after reading the e-mail to compensate for the issues of lockout in lower ph soils. Might even revert back to Grow Big instead of Tiger Bloom, and I am stopping the Cha Ching altogether. (PO4 tollerance issues)

<sigh> Learning is such a bitch sometimes... :jointsmile:

[WashougalWonder]

Well, was gone overnight so she got a chance to settle a little. No change except it is greener. Still not ready for any amount of water. I would say current water content is perfect, not too wet or dry. Still have the big gradient in pH between the old root ball and the new soil. So my latest simple additive to change (lower) the pH is the Cal/Mag additive. Mixed up a 2 cup batch at pH 5.0 (ended up being 2 ml) and and moved off the new dirt from the old root ball and watered over the top of that and pushed the new soil back over the top.

I also wonder if this a normal behavior for this species as it flowers. It is always possible, though I highly doubt it. The fastest and best response was when I gave the molasses. So cal/mag is similar and takes much less to lower the pH. Tomorrow will tell me. Much warmer now, so not too worried about cold, in fact I changed the fan to circulate over the tops under the light.

I will hopefully have some photos later, been a busy time and haven't had time to download and edit for multiple projects.

[WashougalWonder]

Attachment 273221
Topping and shortening internode lengths.

Attachment 273223
A top

Attachment 273222
The whole look

[Sunmaid]

Holy shit man, its like Little Shop of Horrors in there! :jointsmile: