New growth very spindly and sick looking! Help!

[lampost]

So, on a few of my plants I've got some new growth that is really, really spindly. I've posted some pics. Also, the it looks like the outer leaflets of the 5 leaflets that make up a leaf are curled downward! Something is wrong and I'm pretty sure it has to do with my watering...

These are clones that I transplanted 9-10 days ago into 7-8" pots. Pots are probably a little big. Soil is FFOF with a bit of perlite added, maybe 10%. There were really doing well. I'd watered with distilled water upon transfer and then tap water. My tap water seems like it might be nasty. It has a pH of about 7.8 - 8.0 based on pH strip readings. And I didn't have any pH down until now so I've been watering it with pH 7.8-8.0 water. Do you think this could be fucking it up? I'm getting a pH pen in the next couple days so I hope to have pH issues all ironed out soon...

lampost Reviewed by lampost on 01-19-2010. New growth very spindly and sick looking! Help! So, on a few of my plants I've got some new growth that is really, really spindly. I've posted some pics. Also, the it looks like the outer leaflets of the 5 leaflets that make up a leaf are curled downward! Something is wrong and I'm pretty sure it has to do with my watering... These are clones that I transplanted 9-10 days ago into 7-8" pots. Pots are probably a little big. Soil is FFOF with a bit of perlite added, maybe 10%. There were really doing well. I'd watered with distilled Rating: 5

[Italiano715]

So, on a few of my plants I've got some new growth that is really, really spindly. I've posted some pics. Also, the it looks like the outer leaflets of the 5 leaflets that make up a leaf are curled downward! Something is wrong and I'm pretty sure it has to do with my watering...

These are clones that I transplanted 9-10 days ago into 7-8" pots. Pots are probably a little big. Soil is FFOF with a bit of perlite added, maybe 10%. There were really doing well. I'd watered with distilled water upon transfer and then tap water. My tap water seems like it might be nasty. It has a pH of about 7.8 - 8.0 based on pH strip readings. And I didn't have any pH down until now so I've been watering it with pH 7.8-8.0 water. Do you think this could be fucking it up? I'm getting a pH pen in the next couple days so I hope to have pH issues all ironed out soon...

How often do you water them, and how do YOU know when you think you should water them? Part of me wants to say it is your pH going by what you were saying, but the other side is telling me, that it may be possible overwatering... :wtf:

[lampost]

How often do you water them, and how do YOU know when you think you should water them? Part of me wants to say it is your pH going by what you were saying, but the other side is telling me, that it may be possible overwatering... :wtf:

Well, it is my first grow, so the overwatering is something that I'm concerned with.

I determine when I need to water by lifting the containers AND using a $10 soil moisture meter. I'm only watering every 4 days or so and I live in an arid climate with 20% humidty. Often the top soil layer is TOTALLY dry for 2 days before I water. However, they are in larger pots than they require... straight from small plastic cups to 7-8" pots (not sure the volume, but probably a gal or more).

The plant in the pictures was watered probably 20 hours before the picture and started exhibiting the symptoms today. The plant seemed like it needed water though... container was light and moisture meter was dry!

[lampost]

Bump...

Ok, I've filled out the troubleshooting form below. Hopefully, somebody can help me with this one because it's starting to happen to more plants. I don't think it's overwatering, if anything I'm underwatering. Here's the form:

Soil Grows

What is your experience level? First timer

Your Equipment:
.1) Type and wattage of lights. 1 x 1000W HPS
.2) Distance from tops? 24" to 28" depending on plant
.3) Reflector type? Air-cooled, enclosed
.4) Is there a consistent fresh air supply? Yes, the grow room is in one sealed corner of the basement. It draws air from the rest of the basement and the basement has a fresh air intake
.5) Do you have an exhaust fan and a circulation fan? Yes, there is an inline exhaust fan (160 cfm) cooling the lamp that also exhausts the grow room air through the hood. There's also an oscillating fan. It doesn't point directly at the plants because it's too powerful even in low, but it circulates the air in the room and keeps it cool.
.6) What are the bulb wattages, kelvin ratings, and schedule? 1000W HPS Agrostar (w 30% extra blue). Not sure about the rest, but it's pretty standard. Emits 150,000 lumens.

Your medium:
.7) Specific brand and type of soil, (coco, peat based soilless...) and anything you've added to it. Fox Farm Ocean Forest with a small amount of coarse perlite added... probably only about 10% or less. I wish I would've added more, but heard bad advice that I shouldn't for organice gardening (may be true in flowering, but I don't think it is for freshly transplanted clones)
.8) Size of container. Not sure, they are about 8" diameter at the top tapering down to 6" at the bottom, and maybe 6-8" tall. I would guess it could hold 1-2 gallons of liquid. They are definitely bigger than they should've been, but I hoped they'd grow into them. This was one of my concerns with overwatering. Water will sit in the bottom of containers because roots aren't there yet to withdraw it. So, I have been really letting the pots dry out pretty well before watering again. Top of soil is usually bone dry a day or two before I water. I'm going to try to water a little more frequently using less water. I know that's not ideal, but I think it'll help with oversized pots.
.9) Did you use peat pucks (or similar) to root clones or germinate seedlings? No, clones were rooted in soil (or at least they were in soil when I got them).

Your nutrients and water:
10) Source of water? (tap, bottled or filtered) What's it's ph before adjusting? I started using distilled and then switched to tap water. Tap water sits out for 24+ hours. Chloramines in water, so I also use an aquarium chlorine/chloramine removal product to remove chloramines. Tap water is at pH 7.6-8.0. I haven't been adjusting up until now, so it's being fed this water. TDS is 150-200ppm, but appears to be closer to 150ppm.
11) Method of checking water ph. (ph pen, test strips, aquarium test kit...) Was using 5-in-1 test strips (Nitrite, Nitrate, Chlorine, Hardness, pH) from pet store, but just picked up a $125 pH pen. My source water was verified at 7.6-7.7 tonight.
12) Method of adjusting water ph. (phosphoric acid, white vinegar, hydrated lime, PH Up...) Just purchased pH Down, but haven't watered yet.
13) Specific brand and N-P-K ratio for each bottle. List dosages (quantity per gallon) and current feeding schedule. Clones have only been in soil for 10-12 days, so I haven't fed anything yet since FFOF should support them for a few weeks.
14) How often are you watering between feedings, and how much per watering? Haven't fed yet. But I'm watering every 4th day approximately. I'm watering until I start to get runoff out the bottom. But I'm wondering if I should water a little less since I have over-sized pots... then I can water a little more frequently. Right now I'm letting soil get pretty dry before watering again, but they haven't really showed obvious signs of underwatering/overwatering. No droopy leaves, there's still good turgidity.
15) Any additives or tea's? (Superthrive, CalMag, molasses, Mother's Earth...) I did have some spider mite eggs and spider mite damage on the plants. I didn't see any adult spider mites, but I saw some young, clear mites. I sprayed with Pyrethrin spray (Fox Farm Don't Bug Me) once and then I've started a neem oil spray routine. They are getting sprayed every 3rd day for now with neem until I put my No Pest Strip in. I've been VERY careful measuring out the neem oil solution and I'm certain that the neem oil ITSELF isn't a problem. Although, I'm not sure if the neem oil affects the soil conditions like pH, TDS, etc. I did drench the plants pretty good 1-2 times to where the solution dripped on the soil considerably.
16) Are your ph levels stable, or do they fluctuate? Not sure. I haven't been monitoring as I didn't think I'd run into problems this early. I just bought a pH pen and I'll be carefully monitoring my feed water AND my soil runoff.
17) What is your ingoing water's ph? ...your runoff ph? I have been watering with pH 7.6 - 8.0 water. I will be pH'ing water to 6.3-6.8 in the future. Haven't been monitoring the soil runoff pH yet.
18) Do you foliar feed? If so, with what, how often, and at what time do you spray? No, occasionally spray water and neem oil to help prevent spider mites.

Your growroom:
19) Indoors or outdoors? Indoors, basement
20) What size of closet, room or hut? Room is about 4' x 5' and 6.5' in height. It is not entirely sealed. There are gaps in between walls and ceiling and some of the walls for intake
21) What are the temps and humidity levels while lights are on? ...With lights off? Relative humidity is pretty constant at 20 - 30% varying little. Temps with lights on range from about 70-82 degrees. Temps with lights off range from about 60-70 degrees. The room is poorly insulated and temperatures do fluctuate many times throughout the day. When the furnace kicks on it heats up quickly and when it turns off it cools down quickly. I haven't sat and watched, but I'd imagine it can fluctuate the full range 70-82 degrees very quickly and a few times over a day...
22) Have you seen signs of insects in the growroom? Yes, I had spider mites, but they seem to be pretty well under control for the time being. I'm going to add the No Pest Strip once they're healthy to make sure it remains that way.

Your strain:
23) What strain are you growing? (Indica dominate or Sativa dom?) I've got a few different ones going, but this seems to really be affecting my Mr Nice (G13xHash plant) which is pretty much indica, but I've been told it grows like a sativa. Looks like it's starting to happen with my Purple Kushes and LA Confidential to a lesser extent.
24) From seeds or clones? Clones that came with spider mites.
25) Is this an autoflower strain? Nope, none of them are autoflowers...

Please give me any suggestions you might have. My best guess is that's a pH issue. It does have "the claw" on the tiny new growth leaves. Do you think a couple waterings with pH 7.6 - 8.0 water could throw pH out of whack to get these problems. One of the plants has some deformed leafs/leaflets that are really driving me nuts wondering what's wrong. Pics of those are here:

http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-pro...aves-help.html

I suspect it's the same problem, it's just worse in the plant with deformed leaves!

[lampost]

Well I busted out the pH meter.

I mixed up some water pH'd to 6.5 and watered a couple thirsty plants. Started to get a bit of runoff and took some readings. The runoff was pH 6.8 for all three plants I watered.
So, I think I had a bit of a pH problem and the soil was probably at about 7 or so I'm guessing... I think FFOF is buffered with lime so I'm assuming the pH didn't go much above 7. So will soil at pH 7 start to cause any lockouts and twisted or deformed plants like this? I'm going to water with 6.3 - 6.5 from now on.

Hopefully this will solve the issue as it doesn't seem like any of the diagnosticians are around...

[lampost]

Well, it doesn't look like pH of 7 would cause many problems at all...

Could a soil temp above 75 degrees cause this (side effect of root damage)? I read that in Cervantes book, but it seems like it'd be a very common problem for people to have soil temps over 75 degrees with HID lighting, especially with small plants.

[mainegrown]

my soil temp is over 80F.. and i dont have the same problem on all of my plants..
some of em have the claw look and some dont.. one has UP curled leaves :wtf: and the one with curled UP leaves has some of the best buds :wtf: :wtf:
my observation is it is probably a nute lock up from unused nutes in the soil.. i am gonna be feeding the gurls one more time then they are going for 10 days with no nute.. so i will be able to say of it is an over abundance of the nutes or not..
my question is : have you fed the gurls at all yet? and if so what % of the recommended dose?
other question: do your leaves have any sign of mag deficiency?
hope all turns out well
~MG a.k.a. le Maine développé

[lampost]

my soil temp is over 80F.. and i dont have the same problem on all of my plants..
some of em have the claw look and some dont.. one has UP curled leaves :wtf: and the one with curled UP leaves has some of the best buds :wtf: :wtf:
my observation is it is probably a nute lock up from unused nutes in the soil.. i am gonna be feeding the gurls one more time then they are going for 10 days with no nute.. so i will be able to say of it is an over abundance of the nutes or not..
my question is : have you fed the gurls at all yet? and if so what % of the recommended dose?
other question: do your leaves have any sign of mag deficiency?
hope all turns out well
~MG a.k.a. le Maine développé

No, I haven't fed them yet. Just water... it's only been about 12 days? I've heard FFOF can go at least 2-3 weeks. Will probably hit them with some Grow nutes at day 18-21. Plants looked slightly better 1 hour after watering last night, but it could've been in my head. No signs of Mg deficiency as far as I can tell. Bout to go check them again...

So you're showing a similar problem?

[Rusty Trichome]

#2) If possible, since you're air-cooled...lower the hood to about 18 inches, and test for heat at the top of the canopy using the back of your hand. If your hand can hang...so can the ladies. Closest is bestest. (without burning, of course)

#7) Organics are fine if you plan ahead. The nutrients in organics are slow to release, so usually last longer. Perlite is innert. (changes nothing except the density of the soil) Did you read the Fox Farms info about the Ocean Forest?
FoxFarm Soil & Fertilizer Company
Will take a bit for the organic nutes to fade, so your ladies will take a couple/few weeks to balance. (it shocks them to have access to nitrogen sources in flower)

With the organic soil I use, (Filthy Rich by Dr. Q) I still transplant about two weeks into flower. For their first fertilizing I go light with the flower nutes, but the next week I put 'em on their permanent weekly dosage. But then again...I start 'em in 2 cup pots, then progress into slightly larger pots as needed. From the 2-cuppers, I go to 1 gallon, then 2 gallon then 5 gallon and so on. The reason is...during every transplant I'm only adding handfulls of fresh potting soils, instead of a giant pot of the fresh stuff.

8) Never let them sit in standing water. Ever. Oversaturates your soil and causes root rot. When watering...I go with an "add a pint, wait a minute" method of determining ammount of water to use. Add a pint, wait a minute...if no runoff, add a pint, wait a minute. If no runoff...add a pint, wait a minute...till a small trickle of water runs-out of the bottom. The number of pints needed for this trickle is the maximum you should add on watering day, and likely you can go easy with the last pint. (or cup, or half gallon...depending on the size of your container)

#10, 11 & 12) Bring your ph down to range. 6.3 to 6.8 ph maximum. In a pinch, (and only temporarily) lemon juice or white vinegar work, A 60$ ph pen is a very wise investment. (Milwaukee makes a good one)

#18) Do not use neem daily. That stuff will clog the plants respritory pores, and suffocate the plant. Always go in later to rinse-off (spray with properly ph'd water) to remove from leaves. Never spray without raising the lights. Lower 'em again once leaves are dry.

[BenHerb]

#2) If possible, since you're air-cooled...lower the hood to about 18 inches, and test for heat at the top of the canopy using the back of your hand. If your hand can hang...so can the ladies. Closest is bestest. (without burning, of course)

#7) Organics are fine if you plan ahead. The nutrients in organics are slow to release, so usually last longer. Perlite is innert. (changes nothing except the density of the soil) Did you read the Fox Farms info about the Ocean Forest?
FoxFarm Soil & Fertilizer Company
Will take a bit for the organic nutes to fade, so your ladies will take a couple/few weeks to balance. (it shocks them to have access to nitrogen sources in flower)

With the organic soil I use, (Filthy Rich by Dr. Q) I still transplant about two weeks into flower. For their first fertilizing I go light with the flower nutes, but the next week I put 'em on their permanent weekly dosage. But then again...I start 'em in 2 cup pots, then progress into slightly larger pots as needed. From the 2-cuppers, I go to 1 gallon, then 2 gallon then 5 gallon and so on. The reason is...during every transplant I'm only adding handfulls of fresh potting soils, instead of a giant pot of the fresh stuff.

8) Never let them sit in standing water. Ever. Oversaturates your soil and causes root rot. When watering...I go with an "add a pint, wait a minute" method of determining ammount of water to use. Add a pint, wait a minute...if no runoff, add a pint, wait a minute. If no runoff...add a pint, wait a minute...till a small trickle of water runs-out of the bottom. The number of pints needed for this trickle is the maximum you should add on watering day, and likely you can go easy with the last pint. (or cup, or half gallon...depending on the size of your container)

#10, 11 & 12) Bring your ph down to range. 6.3 to 6.8 ph maximum. In a pinch, (and only temporarily) lemon juice or white vinegar work, A 60$ ph pen is a very wise investment. (Milwaukee makes a good one)

#18) Do not use neem daily. That stuff will clog the plants respritory pores, and suffocate the plant. Always go in later to rinse-off (spray with properly ph'd water) to remove from leaves. Never spray without raising the lights. Lower 'em again once leaves are dry.

Thanks Rusty. Good info.