Bubbler-Pond fogger cloner

[Horsemanrocks]

I wanted a better cloner than the domeâ?¦.I did a lot of reading, and yes the super cool Frapaplas fogger at about $600 per copy is the top of the line. At $600 the clone dome wasnâ??t looking so bad. Around a hundred bucks seemed more like my budget. While the frapaplas would fog the entire roomâ?¦.Iâ??m a California boy that can only do 6 at a time, so a pond fogger seemed to fill the bill.

I tried to build with whatever I could pick up locallyâ?¦.Iâ??m a bit rural, and trips to the city are only out of necessity. The 4 ¾â?� vinyl posts and caps come from the Depot and bubble wall air stones from Petsmart.
Also I needed something as compact as possible (low profile) to fit on a high shelf, and I wanted to use 3.75â?� netpots as they transfer down the line to a pre-veg bubbler, and then drop directly into 6â?� netpots in 5 gallon buckets.

So the drawbacks of the pond foggers are heat generated and distribution:

With the fogger below the netpots the fog has to rise up to the netpots and the typical solution was to incorporate a fan to move the fog. This setup creates the fog in a manifold above and allows the fog to drop down in to the grow chambers doing what comes naturally.

To beat the heat issue the fogging manifold is isolated from the grow chamber, so the heat doesnâ??t accumulate in the grow chamber below. It recirculates to a remote reservoir and cools there before being brought back up via a small pump.

As fog floats across the water�.the drain set in the grow chamber is at 1 ¾� and the drain set in the manifold is at (if I remember correctly) 2 5/8�. This in effect reduces the volume that the fog needs to fill by nearly one half.

Now, why the bubbler?
Oldmac reports that after a 100% fogging in a cloner that the lacey roots created by fogging need a week to ten days to restructure to roots that function well in a splash environment.
So what Iâ??m going to try to find out isâ?¦.what is the ratio of fogging to splashing that will allow for a smooth transition as they move down the line to a splash environment. I donâ??t have a clue. Maybe (hint) with luck, a few fogheads will help me figure out where to start.

Donâ??t ask me questions about foggingâ?¦.Iâ??ve never done it. I posted this to learn about fogging. Questions about the buildâ?¦.I would be more than happy to oblige.
I havenâ??t even run it yetâ?¦.the adhesive is dryingâ?¦.weâ??ll get around to that soon enough (provided that it actually holds water).

Letâ??s start with some pictures:

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Foghead thoughtsâ?¦.criticismsâ?¦.and ideas are invited.

More mañana,
Horsemanrocks.

Horsemanrocks Reviewed by Horsemanrocks on 12-14-2009. Bubbler-Pond fogger cloner I wanted a better cloner than the domeâ?¦.I did a lot of reading, and yes the super cool Frapaplas fogger at about $600 per copy is the top of the line. At $600 the clone dome wasnâ??t looking so bad. Around a hundred bucks seemed more like my budget. While the frapaplas would fog the entire roomâ?¦.Iâ??m a California boy that can only do 6 at a time, so a pond fogger seemed to fill the bill. I tried to build with whatever I could pick up locallyâ?¦.Iâ??m a bit rural, and trips to the city Rating: 5

[Weezard]

Dang!
That's pretty sweet!
A good idea, well executed.
Subscribed.

Wee Zard

[LOC NAR on probation]

Very interesting. Tryed a fog cloner and thought the heat would be a problem so we kept temps at about 70 degrees. Results were very poor. Found out we needed 80 degrees or alittle better. So heat from the pond fogger was no issue in an A/C room. More like needed a fishtank heater.

Temps are important. I would also run the bubbler half the time just for alittle splash on the roots. Or to keep it moist in the root chamber.

What we found is if it's just fog all the time the roots become very lacy. If the fogger shuts down for even a hour those lacy roots dry and are damaged for good. If no roots have reach the water level then it's just about all over.

I like your setup, very well thought out and put together. Very interested to see how it does.

[oldmac]

Hey there HMR,

Very nice design and project! :thumbsup: I can't wait to see how it works for you. BTW that is some nice neat work, I'm very impressed.

I would like to clear up something though.....

Oldmac reports that after a 100% fogging in a cloner that the lacey roots created by fogging need a week to ten days to restructure to roots that function well in a splash environment.

....what I found was; going from a regular clonner that just sprays water around, there is a lack of fine lacey roots so when the rooted clones went into a fog based enviroment it took a week to ten days for them to adopt (really grow) fine hair roots. The reverse probably holds true, but the transition may be easier since there will be some tap or water roots avaiable for the plant to use.

So what Iâ??m going to try to find out isâ?¦.what is the ratio of fogging to splashing that will allow for a smooth transition as they move down the line to a splash environment. I donâ??t have a clue. Maybe (hint) with luck, a few fogheads will help me figure out where to start.

That is what I need to figure out also. I am still undecided about which would be better, adding pond foggers to my EZ-clonners or build a pond fogger based fog generator (bucket of fog) and just introduce the fog to the clonners. Either way, getting that ratio correct will be important.

As LOC NAR pointed out, the hair roots are very delicate, but they are formed after the first roots emerge that are water roots. So there should be roots "reaching" down towards water to sustain the plants if the fog takes a holiday. In my aero/fog grow tray I stopped both the aero and fog for over an hour with no damage to the hair roots. The humidity level in the root zone never reached the point of the hair roots drying out after an hour or so, not sure how long it would take but again there was a lot of water roots laying on the bottom of the tray so the potential to completely loose them seems remote to me.

I think a good starting point for you would be to run the pond fogger all the time and spray for 1 minute every 15 minutes or so. But once you get this thing up and running you should get a better idea of how much fog you have and what the cuttings need.

-oldmac

[Prodaytrader]

Oh man, good luck. That's about all I can definitively say about what your doing. It was actually a little funny to see your pics because I have one of those setups sitting in my garage because it sucks! Sorry to say it. The good news is that I have done exactly what you are doing and will give you some tips that I have picked up from the same people your talking to now, as well as using the same equipment your using now. Oldmac uses the Frapa fogger so he doesn't count..lol

The problem with the fogger your using is that it only produces DRY fog. Your plants will need water. That is an absolute necessity. The fogger alone can not sustain your plants in my opinion and I have tried many methods including 4" fence posts just like your doing. Additionally, your pots are too close for veg and bloom, but I think you know that already. I didn't when I tried what your doing and quickly discovered that I ran out of room in there for larger plants. For some reason, the way I grow plants, they all come out bushy and short which means you need a good foot on either side of the plant to give it plenty of room. I know your just wanting a system to clone in though. It seems to me that I couldn't even get the plants ready for the veg cycle with fog alone. I mean to say that I don't think you can just use fog alone even for just cloning as the plant will need more water then what the fogger can produce. Nute's wise, fogging works great, but since you and I have dry foggers, we can never provide enough water for the plants without a secondary system.

Mold will become an issue if you don't control the fog well enough. Humidity is a large issue for foggers. Personally I think it creates too much of a humidity issue at least in my environment. Not only are my leaves all wrinkled from the high humidity, but I also tend to get mold at the base of the plants. DO NOT LET YOUR LIGHTS, COME INTO CONTACT WITH THE FOG. Where ever the fog is allowed to reach outside the res and the lights are shining on that spot, that is where your mold will start. The fog will want to creep out from the inside of the pot especially if your plant doesn't completely fill the hole in the neoprene disk. The lights tend to shine about 1/2" below the neoprene inserts so wrap the base of the plant with something to prevent fog escaping and light from getting down into the pot.

Getting the fog to the right spot was an issue for sure. I had troubles trying to figure a way to get the fog into the fence posts and I figure you will too. They make a waterproof fan that might work great for you. I ended up using an air pump and placed it in such a way as to push the fog towards the growing chamber. Too much air and the fog just blows away, too little and it doesn't get to where you want. Oldmac certainly has this down to a science, but he is using a much different setup then you or I are using. You can get speed controllers for computer fans as well as lower wattage transformers for electronic toys and reduce the fan speeds if your blowing fog too much.

The roots are definitely an issue. Fog roots are very fragile, tiny and hairy and do not like water splashed on them, just like oldmac pointed out. I tried a high pressure watering system to supplement the fog, but failed flat on my face. Frankly, for me, the journey was not near as important as the destination, so I gave up, got away from fog and went with something that would for sure grow plants quickly and easily. Low pressure aero is the cheapest, easiest and safest way to grow efficiently.

By the way, I have a 3 head fogger just like yours (looks like yours only has one head) and it just sits on the floor until I can figure a way to use it properly.

I'm not sure I can tell you properly how to make your system work, but I do know what doesn't work for sure. If that is of any benefit to you, then I can share more if you want. I really wanted fog to work, but it's not easy. Personally I think you need at least 2 to 3 zones for plant roots, where the fog sits on the top, sprayers in the middle somewhere and pools of water at the end.

*I'm on google talk under this username if you want to try and figure this out together through chat.

Others have had better success then I have had, but since they nearly all used different equipment then what you and I are using, they will have different successes. I saw several videos and grow logs similar to ours and they all end the same way...not enough water for the roots.

[Prodaytrader]

I looked at your pics again...I really like how clean your work is. I hope it works for you, but you may find that controlling the fog is a pain in the butt. Post back some working pics, plz.

[Horsemanrocks]

Now thatâ??s some kinda high powered response. Itâ??s more than I imagined.The good news (for me) is that a good part of what I wanted to accomplish is already up for discussion.

The best that I can do for the moment is to put out a generic thank you to all that respondedâ?¦..you put time and energy into this, and most certainly deserve an equal response.

I did find a little shop time todayâ?¦.the good news is that it holds water ( I may have to break tradition and begin to use smileys) And as you might have guessedâ?¦.getting it to flow appears to be the challenge. And while I did have the time to improve it a lot, it will take a little more dialing in to get what I had imagined. Iâ??ll do a post with picturesâ?¦.if I start on it tonight, maybe itâ??ll get in later, maybe not.

Please do me the favor of subscribing or checking back from time to time. I found topics in all posts that Iâ??d like to explore further.

Learninâ?? how to flow,
Horsemanrocks.

[headshake]

you know i'm subscribed!

-shake

[Horsemanrocks]

The good news is that it holds waterâ?¦.the bad news is that it only flowed out of one exhaust portâ?¦.or the other, but not both. There was a bit of a circulation loop going on. It needed to draw air from one side to supply the other.

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So I cracked the yellow lid on the manifold some and the flow evened out to a good flow on both sides simultaneously. So I diddled a bit venting the lid (it took more vent than I thought)

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So with a good flow to the grow chambers I proceeded to cover the first three netpots and watch for fog flow at the last opening. The flow was somewhat weakerâ?¦but most likely good enough.

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Finally I covered the fourth and final opening (no picture) and the fog flow stopped entirely. So itâ??s going to need a vent at the far end to keep a flow going. Or no neoprene collars orâ?¦orâ?¦
As far as fog flowâ?¦.thatâ??s as far as I got with that today.

I did find this site today with very small fans, adapters, and speed controllers. Coolerguys.com carries a huge variety of computer case fans. We have case fans in all different sizes and colors, from 40mm to 360mm, black to multi- color. Shop at Coolerguys.com for the best selection and price! All Case Fans are Guaranteed! so if I must use a fanâ?¦.then so be it!

I did fiddle with pump flow not overrunning the ½� drain. At 20� with an 80gph pump seemed a nice balance. I ran it for about a half hour into a little more than a half gallon of water in the reservoir with no appreciable heat gain.

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Againâ?¦.the mechanical issues I will overcome. The issues of fogging/ splashing (the reason for posting) only take the back seat momentarily. I just need a little more time to read and come up with reasonable questions.

Thanks all,
Horsemanrocks.

[Horsemanrocks]

Well itâ??s not medium lessâ?¦..but a step in that direction. I know 240 of these is out of the question for youâ?¦.but in an 8 holer itâ??s not so much.

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This 3.75â?� netpot will move down the line to a 6 incher. Iâ??ll just feel better with the added support as I put the LST torque on them.

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And if the bubble fogger turns into a bubble only cloner, then little lost. Because Iâ?¦.like yourselfâ?¦.enjoy my projects.

Until next time,
Sonnyboyâ?¦..who also rocks!