Health Reforms

**psychocat** · 09-01-2009, 09:24 PM

I've been watching the debate in the US about adopting a British style health system, I'd be interested to hear others take on this.

The UK population has a higher life expectancy than the US.
I have had many reasons to be thankful to the system we have and I've always believed we would be a lot worse if we followed the US way.

Two comments I heard recently were.
The only time we Brits have a lower life expectancy than the Americans is when we're on military manouvers with them.

And I heard that someone had used the argument that had Steven Hawkings been English then he would not be around.
Steven Hawkings is ENGLISH and says he would not be around WITHOUT the National Health Service.

psychocat Reviewed by psychocat on 09-01-2009. Health Reforms I've been watching the debate in the US about adopting a British style health system, I'd be interested to hear others take on this. The UK population has a higher life expectancy than the US. I have had many reasons to be thankful to the system we have and I've always believed we would be a lot worse if we followed the US way. Two comments I heard recently were. The only time we Brits have a lower life expectancy than the Americans is when we're on military manouvers with them. ;) Rating: 5

**cptcannabis** · 09-02-2009, 01:43 AM

Stephen Hawking is a world-renowned physicist. The NHS would be foolish to let him die, but if he were a normal man with Lou Geirig's disease, I don't think his outlook would have been so sunny.

The problem with government provided healthcare is that it forever changes the relationship between the state and citizen. If you rely on the government for life and death matters, such as healthcare, you become beholden to your own government. And their way to decrease costs = rationing & blocking access to care. Since it's run by the government, there's no accountability. In Britain, they have a formula to decide whether you get healthcare. The procedure is divided by the years that you benefit, and if you don't meet that threshhold, you don't get the procedure. This will mean that many people with very serious health conditions will not get care. The seniors in America have picked up on this, and many of them are showing their great displeasure at the town hall meetings.

The real problem behind all of this is that our government in the U.S. and many other places think they know better than everyone else. Hillary Clinton has actually said that our money is not our own, it belongs to the government, and we are allowed a portion to live from. This kind of mentality demonstrates that our government can't be trusted to look out for our best interests.

**psychocat** · 09-02-2009, 11:53 PM

Hawking became ill at the age of 21 , long before his genius was recognised.

**cptcannabis** · 09-03-2009, 01:56 AM

Nevertheless, he would not be receiving such lavish care right now if he were not a world renowned physicist. He has people that live with him to take care of his medical needs and doctors on call. They don't do that for the average man.

**psychocat** · 09-04-2009, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by cptcannabis

Nevertheless, he would not be receiving such lavish care right now if he were not a world renowned physicist. He has people that live with him to take care of his medical needs and doctors on call. They don't do that for the average man.

The really funny part of your argument is that it is nullified by Mr Hawking himself who on more than one occassion has stated "I would not be here but for the NHS".
You assume that our healthcare is rationed based on academic qualification which is frankly a complete load of bollocks !

**Ramulux** · 09-05-2009, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by cptcannabis

The problem with government provided healthcare is that it forever changes the relationship between the state and citizen. If you rely on the government for life and death matters, such as healthcare, you become beholden to your own government. And their way to decrease costs = rationing & blocking access to care. Since it's run by the government, there's no accountability. In Britain, they have a formula to decide whether you get healthcare. The procedure is divided by the years that you benefit, and if you don't meet that threshhold, you don't get the procedure. This will mean that many people with very serious health conditions will not get care. The seniors in America have picked up on this, and many of them are showing their great displeasure at the town hall meetings.

The first thing you have to understand is that the current health care reform bill will not turn us into Great Britain. The bill seems to create a system more in line with the Netherlands where they still have a thriving private health care industry. If a public option is created, that does not mean that people are going to have to give up their current insurance and go on the public plan. If you are happy with your current insurance plan, a public option is not going to effect you in any way. All this bill will do is create an alternative "option" available to anyone who cannot afford private insurance.

Your anger at the health care rationing in England is ridiculous, when you simply think about how many millions of people the NHS provides care for every year. On a health care budget much smaller than ours, England is able to provide "basic" treatment to all their citizens. It may not be the greatest coverage in the world, but it is better than nothing, which is what many people would have if there were no NHS. Another thing to realize is that private insurance companies ration health care in the exact same way England and Canada do. The public option will not be able to cover all procedures in the same way private insurance companies are unable to. No one is claiming that the public option will give you amazing, world class care. It will simply allow you to visit the doctor or dentist without losing hundreds of dollars.

You are also not understanding that this issue is kind of more important than your personal political ideology. I am well aware that the existence of a public option is a massive step to the left of the political spectrum and if it passes it will be a massive blow to the way the American people view conservatism. Regardless of the political ramifications a public option will revolutionize this country quite literally. I am sure everybody knows someone with health problems who is unable to receive the treatment they need, because they do not have insurance. If these millions of people are suddenly able to visit the doctor and obtain medication, can you even imagine would it would be like having millions of sick people suddenly become healthy and ready to start contributing to society.

In the end,it all comes down to how you view America. Conservatives see a country where everybody looks out for themselves and the federal government does not exist. Liberals, however, understand the lessons taught to them by people like Martin Luther King Jr. and Abraham Lincoln, which is that this country cannot survive unless we look out for one another. We are all Americans and regardless of your political or religious views, I want you to be able to go the doctor if you are sick. It is the year 2009 and people need to stop living in the dark ages. Socialized medicine works and if you don't think so go tell that to all the elderly people who are alive because of Medicare.

**cptcannabis** · 09-06-2009, 11:51 PM

Yes, let's just hand over all power to the government, since they're so altruistic, and they'll just decide what's best for us!

The concept that you can keep your doctor & insurance plan that Obama continuously underscores is a lie. Right on page 16 of the house bill, it says that all plans which are non-compliant with the government standard (which is all of them) have a deadline to get into compliance. If a person has to change anything in their policy due to a life event, change in coverage, etc. It then makes the plan uncompliant, and they have to move into the government option.

Another lie that the public is being forced-fed is the concept that people are being turned away for care. Doctors treat patients in spite of their ability to pay or their insurance coverage. People that walk into the emergency rooms get treated. Unlike in Britain, where there was a huge shortage in hospital beds for mothers to birth in. The government doesn't run anything well, save the IRS to take as much money from you as they can. The Postal Service, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and Veteran's Affairs healthcare are all broken systems. Don't kid yourself that they'll run the healthcare for every man, woman, and child any better.

Seniors will stand to lose quality of life under this nationalized healthcare. "Elective" procedures will become much harder to procure, since the national health board will just divide the cost by the years of benefit and decline to provide that treatment to seniors. Many people with steel hips, knees, and other operations to make them mobile will likely find themselves confined to wheelchairs. That doesn't lend to creating a more productive populace. Just a more sedentary one.

**McDanger** · 09-10-2009, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Ramulux

The first thing you have to understand is that the current health care reform bill will not turn us into Great Britain. The bill seems to create a system more in line with the Netherlands where they still have a thriving private health care industry. If a public option is created, that does not mean that people are going to have to give up their current insurance and go on the public plan. If you are happy with your current insurance plan, a public option is not going to effect you in any way. All this bill will do is create an alternative "option" available to anyone who cannot afford private insurance.

Businesses will find it cheaper to pay the fine than the insurance premium, there goes your choice.

Your anger at the health care rationing in England is ridiculous, when you simply think about how many millions of people the NHS provides care for every year. On a health care budget much smaller than ours, England is able to provide "basic" treatment to all their citizens. It may not be the greatest coverage in the world, but it is better than nothing, which is what many people would have if there were no NHS. Another thing to realize is that private insurance companies ration health care in the exact same way England and Canada do. The public option will not be able to cover all procedures in the same way private insurance companies are unable to. No one is claiming that the public option will give you amazing, world class care. It will simply allow you to visit the doctor or dentist without losing hundreds of dollars.

Dental is not included. If you cannot pay "hundreds" of dollars for your health care, how will you pay the thousands of dollars for your public option. If you think it will be free you are the exact kind of idiot Obama is looking for.

You are also not understanding that this issue is kind of more important than your personal political ideology. I am well aware that the existence of a public option is a massive step to the left of the political spectrum and if it passes it will be a massive blow to the way the American people view conservatism. Regardless of the political ramifications a public option will revolutionize this country quite literally. I am sure everybody knows someone with health problems who is unable to receive the treatment they need, because they do not have insurance.

I don't. And these few (under 10 million) people could be covered for far less than the trillions that will be spent
.
If these millions of people are suddenly able to visit the doctor and obtain medication, can you even imagine would it would be like having millions of sick people suddenly become healthy and ready to start contributing to society.

Basic care as you call it is not denied now, Hospitals MUST treat.

In the end,it all comes down to how you view America. Conservatives see a country where everybody looks out for themselves and the federal government does not exist.
No we don't, WE SEE A FEDERAL GOVERNMENT LIMITED BY THE CONSTITUTION. Liberals, however, understand the lessons taught to them by people like Martin Luther King Jr. and Abraham Lincoln, which is that this country cannot survive unless we look out for one another.
Please provide at least 1 quote to back up this assertion.
We are all Americans and regardless of your political or religious views, I want you to be able to go the doctor if you are sick. It is the year 2009 and people need to stop living in the dark ages. Socialized medicine works and if you don't think so go tell that to all the elderly people who are alive because of Medicare.

In the proposed bill Medicare will be cut by 500 million at the same time that there will be millions of new people added to the rolls.

**Ramulux** · 09-10-2009, 10:27 PM