The problem with libertarianism

[overgrowthegovt]

Many on this site identify as libertarians, and I am definitely opposed to the government sticking its beak in, and to big government in general. However, a few problems arise, for me.

In the recent debate on here about health care, there was libertarian argument against universal health care, because we "need less government, not more." Agreed absolutely...but does that mean that all governmental functions are inherently wrong? Health care must be handled by somebody, and, as profoundly amoral as governments are, they are at least PARTIALLY accountable to the people...unlike the business sectors that currently handle it, and which the libertarians would have keep running it. These companies answer to no one but share holders, and much suffering is the result. They are notorious for dropping people as soon as a major illness kicks in, and also many families have been bankrupted if one of their members has a long stay in the hospital. Ideally, neither of these corrupt systems would handle health, but for now, government is the healthier alternative.

If I were to declare a political affiliation, it would be as a libertarian socialist...mainstream libertarians tend to advocate laissez faire economics that allow for the disgustingly amoral practices of the world's corporations. I read that NATO is the only treaty in history which has been proven to harm the general populace and wages of all the countries involved....it is praised glowingly for the great wealth it has brought to big business, but few others. I advocate that the workers own and control their own workplace, answering to labourers and nobody else....laissez faire capitalism is hardly any better than state communism, in my books (which is pretty damn awful). These assholes have to be curbed, because of the demonstrable harm they do domestically as well as worldwide.

Discuss?

overgrowthegovt Reviewed by overgrowthegovt on 09-01-2009. The problem with libertarianism Many on this site identify as libertarians, and I am definitely opposed to the government sticking its beak in, and to big government in general. However, a few problems arise, for me. In the recent debate on here about health care, there was libertarian argument against universal health care, because we "need less government, not more." Agreed absolutely...but does that mean that all governmental functions are inherently wrong? Health care must be handled by somebody, and, as profoundly Rating: 5

[Esoteric416]

It sounds more like the problem here is the corperate structure more than any one political ideology.
This country seems like a zoo that has run amok with the elephants (corporations) doing whatever they want, including sitting on the monkeys (Us). Each new zoo director (president) has alot of things to say about all the new ideas they have for running the show and how things will be better.
However its the elephants that got the director into office so he never does anything about them, just distracts the monkeys with other stuff.

Sorry for the childrens analogy there, but it seems about right.
I think we need a new social ideology that calls corporations out for all the underhanded shit they pull, but since corporations are made up of people then that means we need the populace in general to think differently, more ethically.
My two cents anyway.

[McDanger]

Many on this site identify as libertarians, and I am definitely opposed to the government sticking its beak in, and to big government in general. However, a few problems arise, for me.

You say that you oppose big govt, then everything you espouse has big gov't running it. Make up your mind.

In the recent debate on here about health care, there was libertarian argument against universal health care, because we "need less government, not more." Agreed absolutely...but does that mean that all governmental functions are inherently wrong? 95% at least yes

I wonder where you think the govt should be made smaller since I have never seen you state any govt program you would cut. The libertarian (I consider myself one) belief is that this country should be run according to our constitution, period. Anything that is not in the constitution is Unconstitutional.

Health care must be handled by somebody, and, as profoundly amoral as governments are, they are at least PARTIALLY accountable to the people...unlike the business sectors that currently handle it, and which the libertarians would have keep running it. These companies answer to no one but share holders, and much suffering is the result.

WRONG, Companies answer to their customers. Ever heard the statement "the customer is always right"? That did not come from some govt flunky as their view is exactly the opposite.

They are notorious for dropping people as soon as a major illness kicks in,
Tell the person that told you this they are LYING. They may be notorious for it but that does not make it true. The squeaky wheel gets the grease (or news coverage in this case).

and also many families have been bankrupted if one of their members has a long stay in the hospital. Ideally, neither of these corrupt systems would handle health, but for now, government is the healthier alternative.

Many doctors have been bankrupted by being sued by trial lawyers also, do you want govt taking that profession over also?????

If I were to declare a political affiliation, it would be as a libertarian socialist...
THERE IS NO SUCH THING
mainstream libertarians tend to advocate laissez faire economics that allow for the disgustingly amoral practices of the world's corporations.
Like giving people jobs.
I read that NATO is the only treaty in history which has been proven to harm the general populace and wages of all the countries involved....it is praised glowingly for the great wealth it has brought to big business, but few others. I advocate that the workers own and control their own workplace, answering to labourers and nobody else
I advocate that all my employees save their money and buy me out. Then I will buy it back from them in a few years for pennies after they FAIL for putting the worker over the customer. I invested and put my hard earned money at RISK to start and run my business, my employees invest nothing, take NO risk and expect part of the profit. TO THEM I SAY FUCK YOU!!!!! They are paid what the JOB is worth, not according to what they say they want.
....laissez faire capitalism is hardly any better than state communism, in my books (which is pretty damn awful). These assholes have to be curbed, because of the demonstrable harm they do domestically as well as worldwide.

This statement is so stupid it could only come from a college professor, and deserves no response.

Discuss?

This is meant as a difference of opinion and not as personal attack.

[the image reaper]

I'm best described as a 'Constitutionalist', almost the same as a Libertarian ... my biggest problem with Libertarianism, is the loss of my Social Security, and Medicare benefits, which I've paid into, most of my life ... I understand that's maybe selfish of me, and that is where the problem lies ... nothing 'fits' everybody's needs ... I'd rather keep the system we have now, but just start hanging crooked politicians ... when an elected official is caught screwing the public, charge him with Treason, and have public hangings ... I bet Government would straighten up, real fast ... and, give the bastards the same half-assed health insurance, the rest of us have to live with, instead of their free, limitless benefits, at the world's best hospitals ... also, NO government pensions ! ... Government was intended, by its founders, to be a 'volunteer' position, not a 'high-paying job for life'

[killerweed420]

Yes libertarians advocate doing away with all federal programs except as needed for national defense and foreign policy. But that doesn't mean the states can't take over the federal programs that they want. Its just that its unconstitutional for the feds to do it. So SSI could be handed over to the states to handle. It just makes all these programs a little easier to control on the state level.
I have nothing against universal healthcare but it should be up to the states to try different methods. Maybe they could find a system that actually works.

[the image reaper]

Yes libertarians advocate doing away with all federal programs except as needed for national defense and foreign policy. But that doesn't mean the states can't take over the federal programs that they want. Its just that its unconstitutional for the feds to do it. So SSI could be handed over to the states to handle. It just makes all these programs a little easier to control on the state level.
I have nothing against universal healthcare but it should be up to the states to try different methods. Maybe they could find a system that actually works.

VERY GOOD point, :thumbsup:

[cptcannabis]

The whole government mechanism now has become a device by which to rob the American people of their wealth and freedoms. The federal government has only two basic duties according to the Constitution- "to provide for the common defense and promote the general welfare." If it would go back to doing just that, we would all be much better off. Our trust in our government displays a lack of trust in ourselves as men to decide what is best for each of us, abdicating that responsibility to Big Brother.

The problem of the government is that it is no longer accountable to the people. We have professional politicians of their own class, spending their entire lives exerting power over others. Doesn't sound too democratic to me...

[Trip06]

Im a savage, I think There should be a giant EMP attack and throw us back into the dark ages at least for 10-20 years. That way we wont have governments controlling the weather, The electromagneticsphere, and ozone layer. OH YES It all is DECLASSIFIED if you dont believe me. Just use that thing we call google and its right at your finger tips. That way we wont have machines like HAARP that fucks with how the earth works and manipulates the ozone layer and weather. OH and almost forgot can send frequencies over vast 1000's of miles to quote "mind control millions". And theres about 8 of these dam things up and down the eastern sea board and in england. Just thought that might be a little more important than health care. The government is WAY to big and WAY to rogue. MINUTEMEN STAND UP!

Almost forgot those big trucks the military has with the giant satelight looking dishes on top that zap frequencies over a 1/2 mile away and make any one in the fire zone start vomiting and become paralyzied. Dont believe that shit its also on the net. They had them in iraq and brought a bunch of them down town New york during all the protests. I just love haveing high tech military hardware on my streets! Nothing like waking up in the morning to experimental weapons being used on onesself. aahh now of to work.
Oh and how its also declassified that we can build hurricanes out of small storms by flying planes into the eye of the storms and dumping nucleis of certain particles.
They built storms so fucking big and kept feeding them for weeks during war with japan. Oh yes you can find interviews with the scientists and piolets and the documents. Yup Our government has weather as a weapon now. Once again If you even think this is nut job shit just google it and you will be shocked.

[Trip06]

The whole government mechanism now has become a device by which to rob the American people of their wealth and freedoms. The federal government has only two basic duties according to the Constitution- "to provide for the common defense and promote the general welfare." If it would go back to doing just that, we would all be much better off. Our trust in our government displays a lack of trust in ourselves as men to decide what is best for each of us, abdicating that responsibility to Big Brother.

The problem of the government is that it is no longer accountable to the people. We have professional politicians of their own class, spending their entire lives exerting power over others. Doesn't sound too democratic to me...

THATS BECAUSE WE ARE NOT A DEMOCRACY! WE ARE A REPUBLIC! WHERE DOES IT SAY THE WORD DEMOCRACY IN THE CONSTITUTION??? NOT ONE WORD!.
Thats what we all are brainwashed to think. See in a democracy 51 percent of the people dictate how the other 49 percent of the people have to live. If a republic 99 percent cant tell the 1 percent how to live.
WE ARE NOT A DEMOCRACY!!! OUR FOUNDING FOREFATHERS WERE AGAINST DEMOCRACY!
WAKE UP AND RECONIZE THIS TURTH. You are being brainwashed by the New york Washington DC/ england imperial world domination. Dosnt every one here no that the USA just invaded pakistan??? YEAH WERE NOW IN ANOTHER FUCKING CONTRY!!!!!! NEXT STOP THE WHOLE WORLD!!!!! WHOOOO HOOOO. Im going to go crawl in my bunker now.

[cptcannabis]

THATS BECAUSE WE ARE NOT A DEMOCRACY! WE ARE A REPUBLIC! WHERE DOES IT SAY THE WORD DEMOCRACY IN THE CONSTITUTION??? NOT ONE WORD!.
Thats what we all are brainwashed to think. See in a democracy 51 percent of the people dictate how the other 49 percent of the people have to live. If a republic 99 percent cant tell the 1 percent how to live.
WE ARE NOT A DEMOCRACY!!! OUR FOUNDING FOREFATHERS WERE AGAINST DEMOCRACY!
WAKE UP AND RECONIZE THIS TURTH. You are being brainwashed by the New york Washington DC/ england imperial world domination. Dosnt every one here no that the USA just invaded pakistan??? YEAH WERE NOW IN ANOTHER FUCKING CONTRY!!!!!! NEXT STOP THE WHOLE WORLD!!!!! WHOOOO HOOOO. Im going to go crawl in my bunker now.

You are correct in that. I was pretty damn high when I typed my first entry, and I misspoke. It just goes to show how we've been trained to think of a democracy and republic as interchangable forms of government. We are a republic in part because the founding fathers didn't trust the common man to decide their own destinies, mostly due to the level of education at the time. So perhaps we've come full circle. There are two schools of thought in a representative government. One, that the elected representatives are "stewards" and are free to decide with their own minds what is best for their constituents. The second is the "direct representation" concept, where the elected official does the will of the people, regardless of what they think. It's fairly easy to tell the two apart.

By the way, if you put it all together, occupying Pakistan makes perfect sense if the government is planning to encircle Russia, which they are. Put it on a map- Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan; they're all on the front porch of Russia. Iraq would make a rather nice deployment hub to push into Russia, even though it's not physically bordering Russia.