Single Payer health Care

[delusionsofNORMALity]

Though Iâ??d agree that government has shown itself incapable of successfully running anything larger than a lemonade stand without totally screwing the pooch, that is hardly the most important reason to avoid the single payer fiasco. Many of the particulars of the proposed plan may be nothing more than barely disguised eugenics experiments, but that is of no more importance than government's history of incompetence. these details are merely the trees obscuring our view of the forest and, though they may make great fodder for discussion, we shouldn't get too involved with such minutiae. The greatest reason for keeping the state's greedy mitts off of health care is that it is not government's place to engage in the daily care and feeding of its citizens. Government is not the father figure so many of us seem to desire. It is not the doting mother that is there to see to our every need. It is more the slightly aloof uncle, there to keep us from decimating each other and to see that the family picnics don't get too far out of hand.

The founders of this country were well aware of the dangers of an all-powerful government and went to great pains to insure the rights of the individual against the aggressions of the state. The bill of rights is less a list of the rights of the citizens than a list of limitations on the ways in which government may intrude on our natural rights. The tenth amendment is little quoted, but I feel you should all take a good look at it - The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. The powers of government that strive for total control have spent a great deal of time and energy perverting the meaning of such words, by amending the document to suit their totalitarian aims or through various other means, but of utmost importance are those last four words - "or to the people". The individual is the final arbiter of his own fate. Each man and woman is responsible for their own decisions and well-being, each citizenâ??s natural rights limited only by the most basic needs of living within a society.

Itâ??s all so simple and so elegant. An entire society built on the premise of the supremacy of the rights of the individual, with government as nothing more than a loose web that ties the entire thing together and protects its integrity. For over two centuries we have complicated our existence and, with each complication, have bound ourselves more firmly to a bureaucracy intent on turning those gossamer strings to chains. The individual has been replaced by special interest groups, government has experienced unbridled growth in both size and power, and our own greed threatens to enslave us to a nanny-state from which there is no release. The ballot box has become a lie as our servants in government blithely push forward their own agendas, regardless of the wishes of their constituents, and the population has become complacent in the myth of our superiority. We have become blind to the basic premise that each man, as an individual, holds sole responsibility for his fate.

Now we are faced with the prospect of another leap in the size and power of the ever growing bureaucracy, governmentâ??s annexation of another segment of the free market which is the domain of the individual. Instead of sensible and equitably enforced regulation, many would have us jump head first into a government monopoly of this sizeable chunk of our economy. Instead of allowing a market determined by the people to adjust a haywire industry, our well stoked fears of evil corporations and big business are guiding us into another trap to limit our options and further embolden the totalitarian tendencies of the governmental monster. After all, what industry can compete with an entity that has no need to show a profit and finds a nearly unlimited source of capital in the pockets of its taxpayers? Whether we want to admit it or not, those corporate entities we take such pleasure in denigrating are made up of the individuals our government is pledged to protect and those businesses are the outcome of the effort and risk of individuals attempting to fill a need within our society. To sweep all that away and replace it with a government monopoly runs contrary to the concepts of liberty this country was founded to defend.

Of course there have been abuses within such a complex and far reaching industry. The concept of greed is far from foreign to humanity, but it is a part of governmentâ??s duty to see that the greed of one does not infringe on the rights of another. Instead of guarding the society from that greed, we find that our representatives have been complicit at most every step and now that the mess they have helped create has become critical, they are conveniently there with plans that can only further reduce our freedom of choice and indebt us to the not so tender care of the nanny-state. We should not be so blind as to excuse the part these political animals have played by handing them even more control over our daily lives.

[Esoteric416]

Ok I get the idea that if the Gov starts an insurance company up that it will likely be just as inefficient as the post office and operate at a loss the same way. That's a good point.
I just read thousands of words arguing against the single payer plan, but if that option is no good then what would be the alternative? I don't think it can be reasonably argued that our current system is acceptable. The only statement that provided an idea for a different approach was that we should allow insurance to be sold across state lines to foster competition, (can't remember who said it) aside from that you guys are using alot of words to very passionately and eloquently say "NO" over and over again.
I'm not very knowlegable about the healthcare system and how insurance companies work, but right now the only competition between these companies seems to be who can more effectively deny coverage to the sick.
How about some alternative ideas to the single payer system if its such a bad idea.

[drudown11]

single payer healthcare is awesome if your a part of one of two groups


1. your a jobless, homeless, drug addicted, lazy, or just god damn worthless person on welfare who wants other people to pay for you to go to the doctor.

you know whos gunna pay for this single payer healthcare? the responsible people with jobs who don't fucking need it.

2. YOUR A GOD DAMN SOCIALIST OR COMMUNIST WHO LIKES TO HAVE THE GOVERNMENT TELL YOU WHERE TO GO, WHEN TO GO, AND HOW TO FUCKING DO IT.

[Esoteric416]

I can't understand the attitude some of you have expressed here about how the government is going to force everyone to use their insurance.
I've seen the example of the post office as being the reason a Gov run insurance company is a bad idea. But even with the post office around we still have Fed-Ex and UPS, and untill recently DHL, yet most of you guys seem to think that a Gov insurance will be the only option if it's implemented.
What's more the attitude seems to be that we will all be FORCED to use the Gov insurance.

From drudown11:
"2. YOUR A GOD DAMN SOCIALIST OR COMMUNIST WHO LIKES TO HAVE THE GOVERNMENT TELL YOU WHERE TO GO, WHEN TO GO, AND HOW TO FUCKING DO IT."
How is this much different from the current system? When I jacked my back up at work I had to conform to my company insurance regulations. I had to go to their chiropractor and could not see my own doctor (or at least those visits were not covered) and some medications were not approved by my company insurance so I was told what to ingest as well. :wtf:

I'm still not saying that the single payer plan is the best idea, but both here and in the public town halls all I hear is people loudly complaining that they don't want the Gov running their healthcare, I have yet to hear a single alternative idea.
How about the Gov asks each state to write up a plan of their own in cooperation with the state citizens and healthcare providers. Those plans could all be looked at and we could pick out all the good ideas to add to an overall federal insurance plan. If the federal plan is no good for you then maybe we could keep the local state plans in place for more options.
Well at least theres an idea. A good idea? Not sure, but it's something.

[carinia]

I've been pretty quiet the past few days because this is such a personal argument for me. I lost my job in April, (where I was paying 60 bucks every week for my husband and I) and was planning to go to COBRA, at a cost of 1600 a month for just myself and not my husband. That was way more than unemployment! Now Im working for a non profit its 310 a paycheck for half the coverage I did have. My sister is paying 600 every two week through her job, and because of her pre existing conditions she is exempt from coverage from almost everything.

I just want something affordable, so if the hubby's back goes out, were not sitting on a 900 MRI bill. So that if I get pregnant, I don't have to worry about how much the hospital stay is going to be. (Which is funny, since they don't pay for birth control OR for pregnancy) I don't mind paying in, but I want it to be fair; at least equal access! I don't like having options about what I would like to give up health wise so we can pay the mortgage.

And we are a normal family. My hubby and I, to quote drudown, are not lazy, we're not homeless (still have to pay the mortgage), I do like pot but whose to say anything about addicts there?, and for fucking sure we're not a worthless. I just want an option where my family is covered; without having to worry about what is exempt, and without having to pay 70% of our pay each month in taxes and health care costs.

There are a lot of things that could be done with this health care bill, but its going to end with a lot of pork. I honestly am SICK of the people who are turning it into an arguement about how bad the "plan" is. Shut up and come up with an IDEA already. The fact is the government is the only entity that can fix the system, so instead of flaming on a cannabis board that no government official is going to read anyway maybe you should go protest or write someone or something. Go do something constructive.

[justanotherbozo]

I've been pretty quiet the past few days because this is such a personal argument for me. I lost my job in April, (where I was paying 60 bucks every week for my husband and I) and was planning to go to COBRA, at a cost of 1600 a month for just myself and not my husband. That was way more than unemployment! Now Im working for a non profit its 310 a paycheck for half the coverage I did have. My sister is paying 600 every two week through her job, and because of her pre existing conditions she is exempt from coverage from almost everything.

I just want something affordable, so if the hubby's back goes out, were not sitting on a 900 MRI bill. So that if I get pregnant, I don't have to worry about how much the hospital stay is going to be. (Which is funny, since they don't pay for birth control OR for pregnancy) I don't mind paying in, but I want it to be fair; at least equal access! I don't like having options about what I would like to give up health wise so we can pay the mortgage.

And we are a normal family. My hubby and I, to quote drudown, are not lazy, we're not homeless (still have to pay the mortgage), I do like pot but whose to say anything about addicts there?, and for fucking sure we're not a worthless. I just want an option where my family is covered; without having to worry about what is exempt, and without having to pay 70% of our pay each month in taxes and health care costs.

There are a lot of things that could be done with this health care bill, but its going to end with a lot of pork. I honestly am SICK of the people who are turning it into an arguement about how bad the "plan" is. Shut up and come up with an IDEA already. The fact is the government is the only entity that can fix the system, so instead of flaming on a cannabis board that no government official is going to read anyway maybe you should go protest or write someone or something. Go do something constructive.

many ideas have been put forth that the lunatic left won't listen to, like
TORT reform, they don't want to discuss that because that would limit
lawyers and all the assholes in congress are lawyers themselves.

and competition, the government could allow competition between company's
over state lines, so people like you could buy the best policy available and
not be forced into the position you are in by the government. ...and don't
kid yourself into thinking that the 'public' option will promote competition,
it will kill competition instead!

and what about lifetime ownership of your own health insurance policy,
rather than that policy belonging to your employer. ...that way, you
start your policy when you are young and healthy and the premiums
are way low, then, if you change jobs for whatever reason, you take
your policy with you to the next job.

so there are a couple of ideas that are better than a government option,
and i'm just an old stoner, imagine the ideas i'd come up with if i were
in a position to make millions, like David Axelrod! ...oh, wait a minute,
his idea is to rob you of your freedom so he can make money!

the reason people seem so angry is because of morons like Barney
Frank and Nancy Pelosi shoving a government option down our throats!

the current administration has tripled the deficit and is still blaming Bush!

frankly, i don't trust any politician, they are all prostitutes in suits and i
am unwilling to trust them to do the right thing when they have proven
so often that all they care about is getting re-elected!

btw, did you see Barney Frank at his town meeting? ...did you see how he
treated his own constituents? ...frankly, i'm surprised he was ever elected, the
ignorant fuck!

this administration is quietly stripping us of all our freedoms and soon, we
won't be living in a free country any more, we'll be living in the United States
of Obama! ...and there might be no going back!

[delusionsofNORMALity]

There are a lot of things that could be done with this health care bill, but its going to end with a lot of pork.

aside from the basic ideological argument against socialized medicine, this is the fundamental flaw in any step that takes any industry out of the private sector and places it into the hands of the state. CORRUPTION. while corruption is not the sole property of political animals, it is far more prevalent and harder to root out wherever they have the most power. trading influence for the support of backers and favors for votes, the denizens of the governmental bureaucracy have turned the concept of public service into nothing more than a power grab and the public welfare into an excuse to create unwieldy and nearly opaque fiefdoms. "health care reform" is a misnomer, carefully crafted to give the people a scapegoat to vent their frustration upon.

true reform would begin with the root causes for the high cost of health care. multi-million dollar payouts for medical errors, nonsensical and unevenly applied regulation, and a culture that esteems doctors and lawyers with near reverence and awe. activist judges, pushing an agenda of wealth redistribution, and bleeding heart juries, hoping that theirs may be the next big payoff, cost the industry billions of dollars in extravagant judgments and the necessary malpractice protection for simple human error and that can't help but be reflected in our medical bills and the general attitude of the industry. lawyers get rich on both sides of such audacious and often frivolous lawsuits and, with a government run by and beholden to the legal profession, no one is in any great hurry to do anything about it. the general public, caught up in the fervor of entitlement and the new american dream of something for nothing, must reassess the concept of fault and quit blaming the wealthy for the plight of the poor, but such a paradigm shift can never occur as long as we are so willingly hypnotized by the blame laying of self-serving politicians and their media lap dogs.

ultimately, it is the people themselves that are to blame for this so-called health care crisis. the greed created by a sense of entitlement to all the best and an apathy that leads to buck passing has stripped us of our power within the marketplace. the people are not entitled to medical care, merely to access to that care. we do not support those who spend years of their lives training to enter the medical profession, so we must pay them for that effort at whatever price the market will bear. we cannot expect the animals of government to force an industry to conform to standards that we do not demand they conform to themselves.

[delusionsofNORMALity]

this administration is quietly stripping us of all our freedoms and soon, we won't be living in a free country any more, we'll be living in the United States of Obama! ...and there might be no going back!

once again, blaming an administration instead of our own apathy and greed. the people placed these fools in power, in hopes of the great something for nothing, and they have only themselves to blame for the loss of liberty that ensues. just as baby bush and company and those before them were allowed to strip us of our rights, so too are we allowing this current crop of thieves to chain us to their idea of the perfect society and emasculate the constitution. our own greed has led us to this sorry pass and continues to degrade this experiment in liberty into a nation of willing slaves and condescending masters.

it makes me kinds glad i'll soon be dead and won't have to watch us fritter away our freedoms for the illusions of comfort and security.

[McDanger]

I've been pretty quiet the past few days because this is such a personal argument for me. I lost my job in April, (where I was paying 60 bucks every week for my husband and I) and was planning to go to COBRA, at a cost of 1600 a month for just myself and not my husband. That was way more than unemployment! Now Im working for a non profit its 310 a paycheck for half the coverage I did have. My sister is paying 600 every two week through her job, and because of her pre existing conditions she is exempt from coverage from almost everything.

Now you have some idea how much your employer was paying for your insurance.

I just want something affordable, so if the hubby's back goes out, were not sitting on a 900 MRI bill. So that if I get pregnant, I don't have to worry about how much the hospital stay is going to be. (Which is funny, since they don't pay for birth control OR for pregnancy) I don't mind paying in, but I want it to be fair; at least equal access! I don't like having options about what I would like to give up health wise so we can pay the mortgage.

The last thing you should be thinking about is getting pregnant, because from the things you have said you cannot afford a child. You should be planning on how to NOT get pregnant (planned parenthood has free birth control).

And we are a normal family. My hubby and I, to quote drudown, are not lazy, we're not homeless (still have to pay the mortgage), I do like pot but whose to say anything about addicts there?, and for fucking sure we're not a worthless. I just want an option where my family is covered; without having to worry about what is exempt, and without having to pay 70% of our pay each month in taxes and health care costs.

There are a lot of things that could be done with this health care bill, but its going to end with a lot of pork. I honestly am SICK of the people who are turning it into an arguement about how bad the "plan" is. Shut up and come up with an IDEA already. The fact is the government is the only entity that can fix the system,

That is not a factBad government plans NEVER go away. The exact opp[osite is probably closer to the truth, "The fact is the government is the only entity that cannot fix the system."

[savage7garden]

if not,
you can read it here: Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

PAGE 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!

PAGE 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!

PAGE 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals proccess)

PAGE 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. YOU will have NO choice. None.

PAGE 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.

PAGE 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.

PAGE 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

PAGE 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW, and ACORN)

PAGE 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.

PAGE 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange. (i.e., total government control of private plans)

PAGE 91: Goverment mandates linguistic infrastructure for services: translation: illegal aliens

PAGE 95: The Goverment will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government run Health Care plan.

PAGE 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.

PAGE 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insureers will be crushed.

PAGE 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.

PAGE 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.

PAGE 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.

PAGE 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400k or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll.

PAGE 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250-400k, who does not offer the public option pays a 2-6% tax on payroll.

PAGE 167: Any individual who doesn't have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.

PAGE 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them)

PAGE 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.

PAGE 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as a tax." YES IT REALLY SAYS THAT

PAGE 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and poor will be most affected.

PAGE 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same.

PAGE 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.

PAGE 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.

PAGE 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power driven wheelchairs.

PAGE 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the world of rationed healthcare.

PAGE 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions. ( can any of you see this leading to a refusal to treat?)

PAGE 298: Doctors if you treat a patient during an intital admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.

PAGE 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited from owning and investing in healthcare companies.

PAGE 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.

PAGE 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input; in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.

PAGE 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures; i.e., rationing.

PAGE 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMO's, etc.

PAGE 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.

PAGE 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone)

PAGE 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Goverment provides Senior Citizens with approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death; assisted suicide, euthanasia. (Hitler called his end-of-life plan the 'Final Solution')

PAGE 427: Goverment madates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.

PAGE 429: Advanc Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.

PAGE 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.

PAGE 469: Community based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.

PAGE 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.

PAGE 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervens in your marriage.

PAGE 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating, and rationing those services.

As any rational person can see, this system has potential for a LOOOOONG list of abuses (aside from the obvious ones that exist from the get go).

ya, single payer~ anyone out there still LOOOOVE Obama? are you still gonna love him when his plan results in the premature death of your parents or grandparents? or how about the denial of treatment for your special needs child or child with cancer? this system is only the beginning.

those of you who haven't already REALLY need to research what you can about the NEW WORLD ORDER, the AMERO, the North American Union, the RFID chip.....God help us all