Single Payer health Care

[Bong30]

In 2003 Obama was quoted as saying he wants single payer Health Care.

Ok if it is single payer, doesnt that mean it lacks competition?

Forget Democrat, and Republican left, right whatever.....


It was described by Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations (1776) and later economists as allocating productive resources to their most highly-valued uses.[2] and encouraging efficiency. Later microeconomic theory distinguished between perfect competition and imperfect competition, concluding that with the no system of resource allocation is more efficient than perfect competition. Competition, according to the theory, causes commercial firms to develop new products, services and technologies, which would give consumers greater selection and better products. The greater selection typically causes lower prices for the products, compared to what the price would be if there was no competition (monopoly) or little competition (oligopoly).

Competition is best for US the consumer.

So if Competition will give us the best product (ie health care, cars, widgets) whatever...

Who is Single payer health care the best for? We know its not us!

Bong30 Reviewed by Bong30 on 08-09-2009. Single Payer health Care In 2003 Obama was quoted as saying he wants single payer Health Care. Ok if it is single payer, doesnt that mean it lacks competition? Forget Democrat, and Republican left, right whatever..... It was described by Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations (1776) and later economists as allocating productive resources to their most highly-valued uses. and encouraging efficiency. Later microeconomic theory distinguished between perfect competition and imperfect competition, concluding Rating: 5

[delusionsofNORMALity]

Who is Single payer health care the best for?

isn't it obvious? it's good for those too ignorant to realize that health care is a commodity just like anything else. it's good for those who seek to control another segment of the free market and place it under the thumb of a faceless government bureaucracy. for everyone else it is just another link forged in our chain of slavery to the state.

[Ramulux]

So if Competition will give us the best product (ie health care, cars, widgets) whatever...

Who is Single payer health care the best for? We know its not us!

I would think that a single payer system would be best for anyone in this country who does not feel like funding a completely corrupt and ethically challenged industry. The health care industry in America is fucking twisted and is obviously not working in the way Adam Smith would have liked it to have run. Decent, affordable health care in this country is a myth and because of this thousands of people die every year from easily preventable illnesses. Now I believe that keeping a significant portion of this country alive and healthy is an important matter of domestic security and as such the responsibility of the federal government. I do not see what is so hard to understand about this concept. As long as the insurance companies continue to make decisions based solely on their profit margins there will never be affordable health care in this country.

I think you need to decide whether your particular political ideology is more important than the well being of your fellow country men.

Can you also please explain why single payer systems are so terrible when they work so well for every other country who uses them?

[MPLSweedman]

a single payer system sounds like magic, and it might be if you just goto the hospital once every ten years

but take into mind all of the poor and homeless people we have, that would all of a sudden be YOUR financial responsibility!

to people who have cancer or serious illnesses that require top of the line care, they would need to be passed over to take in the hundreds and thousands of new, free patients

ALSO, think about it from a doctors point of view. doctors work their asses off in school to make themselves a successful life, hoping to all earn over $100,000 a year, now imagine barack obama showing up and saying you HAVE to treat EVERYONE for FREE... where is the motivation to ever become a doctor???

the bottom line is america is about freedom and this healthcare reform bill is about confiscating freedom.

our government cant even figure out how to hand out water bottles after a hurricane (katrina) and you think they should run healthcare? NO WAY!!!

[justanotherbozo]

I would think that a single payer system would be best for anyone in this country who does not feel like funding a completely corrupt and ethically challenged industry. The health care industry in America is fucking twisted and is obviously not working in the way Adam Smith would have liked it to have run. Decent, affordable health care in this country is a myth and because of this thousands of people die every year from easily preventable illnesses. Now I believe that keeping a significant portion of this country alive and healthy is an important matter of domestic security and as such the responsibility of the federal government. I do not see what is so hard to understand about this concept. As long as the insurance companies continue to make decisions based solely on their profit margins there will never be affordable health care in this country.

I think you need to decide whether your particular political ideology is more important than the well being of your fellow country men.

Can you also please explain why single payer systems are so terrible when they work so well for every other country who uses them?

are there any of our Canadian brothers and sisters out there with some personal
stories about how great the Canadian healthcare system is?

...how about from the UK, would some of you fellow stoners mind sharing
some of your experiences?

and Ramulux, you should have someone explain the free enterprise system
to you. ...Competition incentivizes innovation while a lack of competition leads
to stagnation. Imagine a world where Cheerios was the only cereal there
was.

[MPLSweedman]

why do you think the british are known for having terrible teeth?

because if we had national health care here, a dentist appointment would need to be booked years in advance and most of us wouldnt even bother going just like the british...

you think it sucks to wait at the doctors office when you have an appointment now? imagine your entire city waiting for the same thing

[Ramulux]

to people who have cancer or serious illnesses that require top of the line care, they would need to be passed over to take in the hundreds and thousands of new, free patients

No they wouldn't. There is nothing in the public health care option which would force terminally ill patients to be passed over. I don't know where you heard this but its not true.

ALSO, think about it from a doctors point of view. doctors work their asses off in school to make themselves a successful life, hoping to all earn over $100,000 a year, now imagine barack obama showing up and saying you HAVE to treat EVERYONE for FREE... where is the motivation to ever become a doctor???

Dude you do not understand anything about single payer systems. Doctors are not going to have to start working for free, they are simply going to be paid by the government.

the bottom line is america is about freedom and this healthcare reform bill is about confiscating freedom.

How? The health care reform bill is about providing medical care to those who cannot afford it. How in any way does this have anything to do with confiscating freedom?

and Ramulux, you should have someone explain the free enterprise system
to you. ...Competition incentivizes innovation while a lack of competition leads
to stagnation. Imagine a world where Cheerios was the only cereal there
was.

Health Care for America NOW - New Report: Private Insurance Mergers Lead to Near-Monopolies Across the Country
News Flash, there isn't any real competition among Americas health insurance companies as it exists right now. They have had 80 years to develop an affordable, decent plan that could be used by those in poverty but they haven't. These companies have abused the power they have over the American people because they know we do not have a choice. A public option will create the first real spark of competition within the health care industry. When these private companies begin losing customers and realize that they can no longer get away with charging outlandish fees they will be forced onto a level playing field for the first time since their creation.

I also never meant to imply that I have something against competition. I am well aware that competition is one of the driving forces of mankind and our continued advancement as a society. But health care is not something that you can just leave up to the free market to figure out. It has been that way for a long time and it has not worked. The ability to go to the doctor is not the same as buying a box of cereal. They effect our lives in totally different ways and I think it is obvious that one is more important than the other. So while competition seems to work fairly well for the cereal industry, the health care industry has shown over and over again that they have figured out a way around the concepts put forth by Adam Smith.

are there any of our Canadian brothers and sisters out there with some personal
stories about how great the Canadian healthcare system is?

...how about from the UK, would some of you fellow stoners mind sharing
some of your experiences?

When I say that the single payer systems in countries like Canada, the Netherlands, and Taiwan work very well, I am not speaking subjectively. I am not trying to get you to believe something that may not be true. These countries health care systems work well and that is just the way it is. Now if you want first hand accounts and studies, here you go.
What is healthcare like in the Netherlands? : denialism blog
Does Universal Health Insurance Make Health Care Unaffordable? Lessons From Taiwan -- Lu and Hsiao 22 (3): 77 -- Health Affairs
Single-Payer FAQ | Physicians for a National Health Program
Tome of the Unknown Writer: Health Care Stories: London, Ontario, Canada
Tome of the Unknown Writer: Health Care Stories: St. John, New Brunswick, Canada
Tome of the Unknown Writer: Health Care Stories: London, UK
Tome of the Unknown Writer: Health Care Stories: Randers, Denmark
Tome of the Unknown Writer: Health Care Stories: Madrid, Spain

If you want more I am happy to provide them for you. I also want to make it clear that I am aware the health care systems in these countries are not perfect and that they do not provide the most exceptional care money can buy. They provide a basic public option to anyone who needs it and it ends up costing them less than we spend in this country.

[Ramulux]

why do you think the british are known for having terrible teeth?

because if we had national health care here, a dentist appointment would need to be booked years in advance and most of us wouldnt even bother going just like the british...

you think it sucks to wait at the doctors office when you have an appointment now? imagine your entire city waiting for the same thing

You are absolutely right that there is a lack of dentists in England who take NHS patients. However this is a fairly new problem arising from a series of dental reforms passed in 2006 which simplified the previously complex pay structure for dentists and removed incentives for carrying out complicated surgical procedures. What this means is that the dentists in England are not being proportionately compensated by the NHS for the risks inherent in oral surgery. This in turn means that most of the dentists in England only perform complicated procedures privately, forcing those in need who cannot afford the treatment to simply go without.

However your rhetoric about having to book years in advance is just flat out not true. If you are simply looking for minimal care and service it is perfectly possible to see a dentist on fairly short notice.

Now obviously this is a problem and as I said in my previous post no health care system is perfect. Yet, Britain runs the rest of their health care system very efficiently. So that means that the British people are provided with decent health care in every area but dental services and even then it is not as if treatment is nonexistent it is simply sub par.

[justanotherbozo]

if the government gets involved it will be the biggest dog in the fight, which
will drive private insurance company's out of business which will inevitably
lead to a single payer system, something that goes against everything this
country stands for and everything that makes us great.

hell, even the liberal media is starting to see through his lies! ...so wake up dude!

try and clear your head of the kool-aid fog and ask yourself, do you want
morons like Barney Frank and Nancy Pelosi making your healthcare decisions?


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[headshake]

the bottom line is that if it were such a great system it would have passed already, they don't need republicans for this bill to pass. the democrats are the ones that are holding it up.

i don't even want to get started on obama and his lies. go back and watch "the distinguished gentleman" with eddie murphy. that's where barack's (or barry's) whole change campaign came from.

the government can't run the post office right. how is it that the post office is held by the government, and has every law you can think of helping them out (including a monopoly on delivering "letters) and they constantly loose money, yet fedex and ups are making profits doing the same thing? and people want the government incharge of our healthcare?

check this article out. for all of you economists out there, check out mises.org. it's where the austrian school of economics started. very good stuff.


-shake