Seems to be a bad Phosphorus deficiency mid-flower.

**FatSean** · 06-23-2009, 11:12 PM

I've taken advice from other threads, but I'm not getting too much improvement. More details follow the form.

H=Answer if you grow hydro or aero
C=Answer if you grow coco
S=Answer if you grow traditional soil
L=Answer if you grow soilless other than coco (Promix, Hyponex, SunshineMix)
R=Answer if you grow in RockWool
T=Answer if you grow in HydroTon
D=Answer if you run any type of automatic drip system, including into soil or soilless
E= EVERYONE needs to answer lol!

E-indoor or outdoor - INDOOR
E-soil, soilless, coco, aero, or hydroponic - SOIL
E-specific medium - Fafhard 'Red' Potting soil 2TBSP pulverized Garden Lime per gallon of soil. Pour soil from bag into container while shaking the lime in, then thoroughly mixing by hand. No water added.
CSL-Soil type/brand - Fafhard 'Red' Potting soil
HCL-Hydro/aero/soilless system type
SCL-Anything you have added to the soil - 2TBSP pulverized Garden Lime per gallon of soil. Pour soil from bag into mixing container while shaking the lime in, then thoroughly mixing by hand. No water added. Then add about 16oz (keg cup) of MGrow perlite per gallon, also thoroughly mixed in by hand.
SCLR-Soil or slab runoff pH - Drops as time passes despite lime. Input is always 6.5pH (meter has margin of error +/- .2 tho) and output ranges from 6.5 to 5.8 . I use the technique recomended on this site.
E-Water source - R/O filtered well water. About 23 TDS.
E-Source water pH - Reads as 6.6 but add a touch of pH up and it goes to 7.0
HRT-Source water EC (if hydro)
E-Age of plant - 3 - 4 weeks Veg, problems appear after 2 - 4 weeks of 12/12
E-Type of fertilizer - Fox Farm liquids only. I use the chart but halve the dose and fert every time.
E-Rate of application (if hydro, this is your PPM number, preferably after each component is added) - takes about 5 - 6 days for flowering plants to dry out enough to re-feed.
E-Lighting source and distance from plant - 400W HPS about 16" from tops.
E-Air temperature (both day and night if you are running a dark period) - Have a ghetto thermostat...hi/lo thermometer reads low of about 70, high of about 80-85
HD-Reservoir temperature
E-Air % Relative humidity - 40 to 90 percent.
E-Lighting schedule - 12 hours on, 12 hours off.
E-Type of ventilation your room has - 4" CanFan pulling through charcoal filter and out the top. Hooked up to attic thermostat set at 77F.
TR-Did you pre-soak your media in pH corrected solution?

Well everyone, I have been growing both Northern Lights and Laughing Buddha. Symptoms sometimes vary by plant but at about 3 or 4 weeks into the 12/12 lighting schedule, the older fan leaves on my plants start to show damage. Margins tend to curl up and leaves take on a bronze/purple cast. Often the leaves will curl up into tight tubes, but not always. Sometimes they show small orange spots on them, but since I've been better about input pH, the dots are rare. As soon as I see this I do a flush with 3 gallons of pH correct water for a 3 gallon pot, then feed with mild bloom fert. Problems still progress until all the big fans are dead and most of the single-blade bud leaves and tips of the top buds are purple! Leaves get brittle. I get buds, no doubt. But a friend who grows the same strain has much fatter calyxes...his plants are so much happier looking I know I'm losing yield.

<whine>
Please don't tell me to flush with 9 gallons of water per pot. It takes so long and that much RO produces 50 gallons of drain water (if I can't use it for the outdoor garden)...I feel bad about that. I'd rather switch ferts than do that flush routine.
</whine>

FatSean Reviewed by FatSean on 06-23-2009. Seems to be a bad Phosphorus deficiency mid-flower. I've taken advice from other threads, but I'm not getting too much improvement. More details follow the form. H=Answer if you grow hydro or aero C=Answer if you grow coco S=Answer if you grow traditional soil L=Answer if you grow soilless other than coco (Promix, Hyponex, SunshineMix) R=Answer if you grow in RockWool T=Answer if you grow in HydroTon D=Answer if you run any type of automatic drip system, including into soil or soilless E= EVERYONE needs to answer lol! Rating: 5

**glennc7** · 06-24-2009, 04:23 AM

I'm starting to notice bronze metallic/purple dots on my leaves as well. Currently have a hydroponic drip system with clay rocks in a 2 gallon bucket. Have you done anything to cure this? Should I be worried?

Thanks!

**Rusty Trichome** · 06-24-2009, 02:00 PM

A couple things before I wisk my wife to the airport...

Is Farfrds Red a time release soil, or the regular potting mix? Adding full-strength nutes can cause problems, if the soil already has nutes.

Adding garden lime to pots...I always run some water through prior to adding the plant. This way, the lime can interact with (melt into) the soil...not the roots. (can burn the roots with direct exposure)

Unless I'm correcting a major problem, I usually flush with the volume of the pot. Not three times the volume. Three times the volume is kinda overkill for a simple flush to remove salts/nutes. If your garden has proper drainage, switching nutes is unnecessary. (thought you were talking indoors, though)

What method of testing runoff are you using? If one of those color-coded test kits or a soil probe...your results will fluctuate wildly. The color coded test kit is skewed by the color of the runoff, and the soil probes never work right. Ever.
If using fresh potting soil, and an ingoing water ph of 6.6, worst your runoff ph should be is 6.2 to 6.4ish. (approximate) Adjusting water to 7.0, and adding limestone dust (garden lime) might be bringing the ph too high.

**Rusty Trichome** · 06-24-2009, 03:53 PM

Wife is at airport, gone for the week.

<doh> I mean...

Feeding with every watering increases chances of nute build-up, but some do it fine. I, of course, like doing it my way:

Ok...with the FF liquids, the total weekly dosage is listed on their website. (the link is in my signature, and I've been using it for years)
I use half-strength doses, twice per week with the nutes. Plain, properly ph'd water inbetween...assuring adequate moisture to lower root zones.

With one exception to the schedule. I go half of what FF says to use for the Big Bloom. (it's an organic catalyst/tea) By this I mean...Fox Farms says to use 3 Tbs per gallon weekly in veg. I use about 1.5 Tbs weekly, split-up between my two feedings per week. (approx 2.5 tsp per feeding) I also add 1/4 tsp of unsulphured molasses (per gallon) on feeding days. I use the same 1/2 recommended weekly ratio for the Grow Big in flower, and the 1/4 tsp:gal of molasses.

But if your soil has time released nutes there already, the above schedule is for after the nutes in the potting mix have been exhausted. Likely after a month or so. The plants will let ya know.
If you're going to use the solubles in flower or to induce flowering...use care. That stuff is quite strong.

Allowing the pots to get too dry in flower isn't great. If the pot feels remarkably light when you pick it up...you should have watered yesterday.

Just noticed the meter accuracy you mentioned. Do you have calibration solution? If not, you can test accuracy using a freshwater aquarium test kit on your tapwater, and see if they're agreeing on ph. Do this to warm water, and check accuracy, then the cold water. (ph will change with temps)

The canoeing (and the resultant tubing and twisting) is likely a ph issue. After the canoeing/twisting/tubing, comes nutrient lockout. Everything starts to yellow.

Why are you R/O'ing the well water? I know different regions have different types of aquifers, but I've used mine for years without problems. (except for the 8.0 ph before ammending)

Late flowering orange/brown spots may be a sign of calcium def. This can happen especially if the water has been filtered. (R/O)

Hmm...Usually I'm a lot better organized with my thoughts. Hope you can see through the clutter. Been a hectic morning, lol. :jointsmile:

**FatSean** · 06-24-2009, 09:26 PM

The potting soil says nothing about added nutrients or time-release, which is why I buy it. It is one of the few non-time-release options in this area...most places sell the time release national brands. link to <a href="http://www.fafard.com/index.php?p=14">soil info</>

I grow indoors, in a 3'x3' 'hydro hut'. Thanks for the clarification on flushing. I can handle three gallons of water for flushing if that is enough to counteract the FoxFarms salt build up (if, indeed, salt build up is a problem here).

I use RO because my well water is quite hard. TDS ranges from 250 to 280 and white and rust deposits are all over the plumbing. pH of raw tap water ranges from 7.4 to 7.6.

The pH Meter is an 'UltraBasic' model that does single-point calibration. I do check calibration every week, usually the meter is spot on. The margin of error may mean that if the solution is 6.5 the meter could read anywhere from 6.3 to 6.7...which is why I shoot for 6.5 for all my input water/ferts.

As for the FF ferts., I stopped all soluables two plants ago. I use one tsp of CalMagPlus per gallon of RO to replace minerals. I've been feeding half-strength (by the FF chart) every time the pot is dry. Thing is it takes 5 days to get light, so they're not really getting the full dose every week. My grow environment is pretty humid...never drops below 50% in my basement during summer. These are approx 3' tall (after stretch) plants in 12" plastic pots with extra holes in the bottom. Am I just waiting too long to water, or maybe I need a dehumidifier to bring down the humidity and speed up transpiration? Soggy soil? The FoxFarm schedule for weeks 7 and 8 (3rd and forth week of 12/12) says to use both GrowBig and TigerBloom. Do you do this? Just cut the liquid dosages in half?

I've read through your post, not too hard to follow

I have some questions in bold above. What do you think of my proposed changes below?

- Use your reccomendation of BigBloom dosage for Veg and Flower
- Use your reccomendation of molasses dosage for Veg and Flower
- Start feeding more often. I've always been afraid of soggy roots so I wait till the top of the soil is quite dry. Perhaps I'm waiting far too long.
- Flush with 3 gallons of pH 7.0 water next time I see the leaf margin curl and color change.

Thanks!

**Rusty Trichome** · 06-24-2009, 10:34 PM