Second Martian Method attempt

[Weezard]

Be a shame to waste her.
Take her for a ride in the country.
Find her a nice clearing in the forest.
Introduce her to real sunlight.
And set her free!

If she's truly yours, she'll wait for your return.:jointsmile:

Aloha Mom.

Weeze

[salmayo]

Sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner Mother, tried several times yesterday but was apparently running into server problems.

I'm pretty sure what we are seeing is UV triggering at the start of your Red LED PAD schedule, which works the same way as Blue triggerring would if i occured at that time.

The plants are just as UV sensitive as they are Blue light sensitive and may trigger at radiance levels as low as 1/5th Watt per Square Foot of monochromatic radiation if it appears between the 280 to 520nm band.

Detecting UV contamination is a little more tricky than detecting visible Blue light contamination. What I do is expose phosphors with some Blue emission directly to the LED (and other) radiation and observe the phosphor looking through a Blue filter. If UV is present the phosphor will emit some Blue light that is visible through the Blue Filter, which blocks out the Red.

I assumed you would not be getting this problem since it did not appear before as a symptom.

*****
I'm also assuming that your 4/9/11 schedule follows the Dark sequence of SID then Red PAD, and not Red PAD then SID. If you are using PAD then SID that would be the problem most likely and if so you should switch to SID then PAD.
*****

UV from Red and other LEDs -
With the demand for higher output LEDs and especially with the popularity of the Dogma that UV increases potency, LEDs producing seconday UV emissions are being manufactured and marketted for plant growth and they are appearing on the market.

Part of the situation is that the best emitting LED us "Clearlake" cases which do not filter out UV. The Red cases, used to color correct the outputs of cheaper LEDs, usually contain filter pigments that do block these UV emissions.

If this is the problem it is easily corrected by using some form of UV blocking material that doesn't block Red (or Far Red).

I use transparent Red or Yellow plastic filters (Reds are a better bet), but carbonate materails are probably the most available to the average person. Carbonate greenhouse materials are available with clearly stated UV blocking characteristics. Nylon doesn't block UV and it's fairly easy to distinguish Nylon from carbonate materials, since clear Nylon is brittle and breaks/shatters easily when you bend it, while Carbonate tends to crease/pull/distend rather than break.

Borosilicate glass blocks some UV, but not as good as Carbonate.

Camera shops can order UV filters, but they tend to be more pricy.

(I'll try to get one more related post in before risk more server issues).

Sal.

[salmayo]

Mother, the symptoms your plants are displaying indicate that the your 11 hours of SID time are then running into a Blue/UV trigger and that the remaining 9 hours of Red PAD are triggering as PAL instead.

The single bladed leaves, alternate phyllotaxy, and elongation type growth habit are most often observed as preflower by grower turning their timers down to 12/12 by increasing the hours of Darkness used by 1/2 to 1 hour per week, and observed as revegging by growers turning their timers "back up" to reverse the plant from flowering to vegging.

Although slowed grow is one of the indicaters of early/pre - flowering, it is also a symtom of "Rauber's Disease" (AKA Hyperchlorophyllic Anemia, anemia -from Ancient Greek ἀναιμία anaimia, meaning "lack of blood"). This is the reason Red (and some other) LEDs have such a bad reputation for plant growth. Spectrums with Time Factors above 2.0 show this poor growth. This can be corrected with the popular solution of adding Far Red, but as you concluded it takes higher wattages of Incandescent and/or Wide Spectrum fluorescents to counter the levels output of LEDs, especially the 660nm Red LEDs (the one everyone seems to be trying to sell us all).

I assumed at first that you were using a spectrum set-up with a time factor arround 5 in order to reduce preflower/earlyflower stem elongation, but I also have stated that I increase the use of Far Red (in your type of application) as stem elongation decreases as flowering continues (assuming the timing schedule is correct), which means I change the spectrums to lower the Time Factor as the plants elongation characteristic decreases (in order to increase the growth rate). Following the plants behavior I take the Time Factor down to about 1.6 as flowering continues and in the final stages of flowering just before harvest I take the Time Factor down as far as 1.3 .

Gotta run.

Take Care Sal.

[Dogznova]

Following the plants behavior I take the Time Factor down to about 1.6 as flowering continues and in the final stages of flowering just before harvest I take the Time Factor down as far as 1.3.

The question is... How does one get there time factor to 1.6 then to 1.3?

[Mother]

Hey Sal! Yes, my schedule is using Red PAD after "daylight" and before SID. I would switch it around, but I just don't have room or time (I'm moving) to grow the plant out from where it is. I really like Weez's idea :thumbsup: but that's not really a workable idea where I live. It would be a beautiful plant to flower out though

As always Sal, thanks for your help and education and I'm glad I could learn some more before Halloween.

[salmayo]

Using (the slower) Red PAD after "daylight" and before (the faster) SID, slows down the process during which the trigger that begins the plants measurement of the Night duration.

I mentioned your situation to Rauber and he commented that if the plants were still in veg when put on your current schedule that the grow rate slow down could cause the plants to appear to freeze in the middle of the changeover between vegging and flowering, which also looks like the changeover between flowering and veg as I mentioned before.

Please note that the slowdown in growth appears (for lack of a simpler descriptive term) to be exponential rather than linear. If it were exponential I'd personally say it appears to the third power rather than just squared.

Oddly enough this accursed growth slow down is just what people are always wishing for when they run into early flower stem elongation.

The amount of Red Incandescent it takes, to get the Time Factors down more and more as flowering continues, is large (I've gone up to 5 times the wattage of the LEDs I used), but it is offset somewhat by the high efficiency of LEDs and it does offer the ability to change these ratios at will, provided you can set the timing schedule to keep your equivalent SID time basically the same.

The good news is that Rauber's method not only improves on the overall efficiency, but also allows for the ability to turn the growth (elongation) rates up and down in the same manner (not to mention the as yet unmentionable other benefits... ...Come on Halloween!).

We really appreaciate all the trials you've endured Mother. Thanks for being so patient.

One benefit of this apparent growth freeze, is that the plants clock is still executing and sending out the normal accumulating population of mRNA messages building up in the plants tissues, and after the plant's regular (3 to 14 day) period of going into bloom, by turning the growth rate back up, you get the plant to go into flower with a minimum increase in (vertical) size.

Good luck with the move.

Take Care, Sal.

[salmayo]

What kind of timers are you using?

What are their accuracy (30 min, 15 min, 1 min) and what are their minimum durations/intervals (45 min, 30 min, 15 min, 1 min )?

Can any of them perform 4 or more complete on/off cycles per day?

It'll help at this end.

Take Care, Sal.

[Mother]

Hi Sal, I'm using a pretty standard 15-minute increment timer, I've attached a picture for you. I don't know what the accuracy is, but I'd guess 3 minutes or so, if I set it carefully.

I had to cut my plant. I'm moving and it simply wasn't transportable. I hope my short grow was informative to others, I learned from it. :thumbsup:

I'm excited about the coming few months!

[Mother]

Hit submit too soon there... :jointsmile:

What kind of schedule would you suggest? I can muster up a few of these timers if needed... I'm very interested in a four-complete cycle 24-hour period...

[MerryPrankstr]

For what it's worth I picked up a 15A Digital timer at my local Ace Hardware store, so I think it's safe to say that they are generally available.

These timers are the direct replacement for the one Mother shows. I think I paid maybe $15-20 USD each. They are accurate to 1 minute and can handle something like 225 on/off cycles per week.

:twocents:
M.P.