HID & LED

[Horsemanrocks]

Iâ??m in the planning stages of a DWC. It looks like itâ??s going to be 6 buckets. The grow room is 5 feet wide by 2 ½ feet deep.
Iâ??m contemplating a 250W HID in the center with 1 GrowPanel 45 at each end. Hereâ??s a link for the LEDâ??s led grow lights -Sunshine Systems : The GlowPanel 45 LED Grow Light
I need some heat as I live at altitude and the winters get quite cold and Iâ??m not really interested in supplying supplemental heat just for itâ??s sake alone. And the summers get above 90 degrees from time to time, so too much heat isn't so good either.
If the LEDâ??s perform anywhere close to as advertised there should be lots of light that can get pretty close.
And opinions as to how the LEDâ??s might perform during veg is also of interest.
Oldmac has just posted a grow using both combined Iâ??ll definitely want his opinion as well as all opinions as to the viability.

Horsemanrocks Reviewed by Horsemanrocks on 05-16-2009. HID & LED Iâ??m in the planning stages of a DWC. It looks like itâ??s going to be 6 buckets. The grow room is 5 feet wide by 2 ½ feet deep. Iâ??m contemplating a 250W HID in the center with 1 GrowPanel 45 at each end. Hereâ??s a link for the LEDâ??s led grow lights -Sunshine Systems : The GlowPanel 45 LED Grow Light I need some heat as I live at altitude and the winters get quite cold and Iâ??m not really interested in supplying supplemental heat just for itâ??s sake alone. And the summers get Rating: 5

[oldmac]

Hello Horsemanrocks,

First I looked at your link, I have not seen those panels so it is hard to say much about them. With panels like that, obviously man in China, I would like to know some more specs on the diodes they are using. As to thier claims of equal to 250w hps from 45w, I doubt it. Same goes for claims that UFO's at 90 watts equal 600hps. That is why so many say bad things about LEDs.

You have a rather narrow and long area to deal with, you need to come up with something to get and even distribution of light.

Remember that LEDs don't have the light penetration of HPS, thier effective light drops off faster as distance increase. Sorta why I'm trying to hybred them to T5s, they don't penetrate far either. Sounds strange I know, but really perfect to grow single cola style plants.

Let's see if anybody else has some ideas (HEY WEEZARD), I need to sleep on it.

[Horsemanrocks]

oldmac Iâ??m quite happy to get your inputâ?¦WeeZard too if heâ??s interested.
The reason to question the viability is that the 45watt LED equaling the 250W HID seemed a little bit much for me to believe too. 5 feet wide by 2 ½â?? deep is 12 ½ sq feet. A 250W HID in the center with a questionable 250W LED at each end would be a theoretical 750W overall divided by 12.5 sq feet = 60W per sq foot. But then what would it be really, something less I imagine.
The whole thing could be resolved with (2) 250W HIDâ??s side x side, but Iâ??d like the heat and energy savings by combining the twoâ?¦.(HID & LED). After seeing the pictures that you posted of using the two in the same grow I thought that you might have a better idea of what Iâ??d really end up with.
As far as lack of penetrationâ?¦I figured to SCROG it so that penetration wouldnâ??t be so much of an issue. And the Jorge Cervantes book leads me to think that the lowered heat values would allow for getting the light closer to the tops.

[oldmac]

Yo Horseman,

One of the biggest problems with LEDs is the exaggerated claims made by many who are only looking to make money, and don't really care about what they make.

SCROG is a great indoor growing technique, lots of colas packed in to give a good continous canopy. Plus fewer plants total, which could be a good thing in some legal situations.

Now to your situation;
I like the combination of HPS and LEDs, they should compliment each other well. My first choice would be to combine your 250w HPS with a Procyon 100. I would bolt them close together and mount them on a light rail. This will spread out your light to cover the 5' length easily, plus it spreads the heat of the 250hps around some. Light penertration is so much better since the "angle of attack" of the light to the plant changes constantly, allowing light to hit ares that normally would be shaded with a fixed light. (it's also fun to watch!)
Intial price of the Procyon is higher then some lights (china made) but you're getting proven excellent LEDs (Cree Xlamps).

A less expensive deal would be cheap knockoffs...........
speaking of cheap knockoffs, I'll see if Weezard has 2 cents to spend here.

[Horsemanrocks]

Yeah, if I want to stay legal Iâ??m limited to 6 (mature) plants.

I guess that what attracted me to my proposed idea was that the two LEDâ??s @ $140 ea would only amount to $280. The Procyon 100 is listed @ $599.

I probably could look further, but even the 4â?? light mover from Hydrofarm demands a 1â?? clearance on either end netting a 6â?? overall spaceâ?¦mine is 5 feet. Iâ??m beginning to imagine that shorter light movers arenâ??t around because who wants to move light such a small distance. Iâ??m thinking that a spread of fixed lighting may be my only solution.

Procyon 50â??s are listed @ $199 ea. With the 250W HID in the center flanked by a pair of Procyon 50â??s. The sad thing is that they each draw 4.2 amps. That doesnâ??t sound like what Iâ??m trying to accomplish.

The Cervantes book gives me the idea that a 250W Hid would cover a spread of 3â?? x 3â??. If it was closer yet it would only need to cover 2 ½â?? x 2 ½â?? ( the depth of the flower room) that leaves a 2 ½â?? spread (width) to be covered by the 2 LED panels. Thatâ??s 15â?� X 30â?� for ea LED (theyâ??re more directional, so that may be tough to do) I guess that Iâ??d hoped that even the GrowPanel 45 might pull that off.

Iâ??m fully aware that Iâ??m a cheap bastardâ?¦.and to compound that Iâ??m also a do it right the first time kind of guy. On top of everything the idea of dumping excess heat is hard for me to swallow. The American way is to want quality, want it cheap, and to have it right now. Woe is me, woe is me!

I thank you again for taking the time to help me think this through.

[Weezard]

...
Procyon 50â??s are listed @ $199 ea. With the 250W HID in the center flanked by a pair of Procyon 50â??s. The sad thing is that they each draw 4.2 amps. That doesnâ??t sound like what Iâ??m trying to accomplish.

The Cervantes book gives me the idea that a 250W Hid would cover a spread of 3â?? x 3â??. If it was closer yet it would only need to cover 2 ½â?? x 2 ½â?? ( the depth of the flower room) that leaves a 2 ½â?? spread (width) to be covered by the 2 LED panels. Thatâ??s 15â?� X 30â?� for ea LED (theyâ??re more directional, so that may be tough to do) I guess that Iâ??d hoped that even the GrowPanel 45 might pull that off.

Iâ??m fully aware that Iâ??m a cheap bastardâ?¦.and to compound that Iâ??m also a do it right the first time kind of guy. On top of everything the idea of dumping excess heat is hard for me to swallow. The American way is to want quality, want it cheap, and to have it right now. Woe is me, woe is me!

I thank you again for taking the time to help me think this through.

<Poof>
Someone holler for a tiny gecko's opinion up in here?

Aloha from another cheap bastard HMR.
I'm un-impressed by the growpanels, and with that website.
It's all hyperbole heaven over dere.

Here's a couple pennies.
I think you will do much better with a UFO or so.
They are all over e-bay. 'cause there a chinese company making them to order.
They offer samples for $135.
So, there are some decent ones to be had for about $200 USD.

Addem to a 250W HPS and ya got synergy.
The HPS will provide a little slow fading far red in the evening which, (I think), is all that Leds lack.
That said, be careful. there are some pretty dodgy folks on da bay sellin' "UFO-like" excrement.
Ask them about actual current draw.
You want to hear over 750ma.
They evade, you bail.

Gotta run, but a I have a few more opinions if you are interested.

Aloha,
Wee Zard

[DreadedHermie]

Horseman, the HGL site hasn't been updated in months. If you attempt to order any products directly through that site, you will see either an "out of stock" or "discontinued" notice. Been like that since before I started building my own light. I know this because I was gonna build a couple of 50 watt kits myself, so I started watching to see when I could order. (This was, again, months ago.) Finally got tired of waiting and built from scratch.

[Horsemanrocks]

Of course I want your opinion/opinionsâ?¦â?¦all of them. Iâ??m not out here asking because I already know the answers. Iâ??ll also take opinions as to a more optimal setup if thatâ??s what you have in mindâ?¦.Iâ??m only dealing with what I could imagine.

Iâ??m not exactly sure why a watt +/- per led is important, but after reading some of your posts in the past, Iâ??m satisfied that I wouldnâ??t exactly understand the explanation. Maybe I never was that goodâ?¦..but my electronics training was when I was a muuccch younger man. But then almost everything (that I can remember) was when I was a much younger man. No need to explainâ?¦.Iâ??ll simply take your word.

With a 90W LED on either endâ?¦.it looks like â??my futureâ??s so bright, I gotta wear shadesâ?� Timbuk3

Lots of options on ebay, thereâ??s even one with the red, blue, and warm white Whoa
It looks like a number of them advertise 1W per. Theyâ??re running about $185. Although I do see the value over paying $140 on something useless. Damn that oldmac for making me pay for quality
I will even take a particular sellers name (ebay) if youâ??re willing to assist in the qualifing.

With 90W of current draw, is the heat comparable. Iâ??d always imagined that it was considerably lessâ?¦.but those cooling vents on the top of the UFO look pretty serious! My electronics background reminds that watts have to equal heat somehow. Si o No

Is there enough blue in a UFO to put up a respectable veg?

Aloha,
Haole Horseman

[Weezard]

"I will even take a particular sellers name (ebay) if youâ??re willing to assist in the qualifing.

Might seem like pimpin'.
They frown on that around here.
But, I'll root about and see what I find.


With 90W of current draw, is the heat comparable. Iâ??d always imagined that it was considerably lessâ?¦.but those cooling vents on the top of the UFO look pretty serious! My electronics background reminds that watts have to equal heat somehow. Si o No

They look serious but they're just 3 small, cheap, muffin fans.
Leds don't radiate heat like incandescent lights or HPS/MH.
That's why we can have the lights right down on the canopy.
LEDs produce heat at the diode junction.
So we have to suck the heat out the back and dispose of it.


Is there enough blue in a UFO to put up a respectable veg?"

There is in the one I have.

[attachment=o218241]

I'm quite pleased with it and I have several homebrewed lights to compare it to. Of course vegging is easy, I've vegged under 14 Watts of R n B

Lemme get this disclaimer out of the way.
Notice:
This lizard is not an expert at anything but loafing.
I don't have "the one true way" . I'm just an old fart who has plenty of time to think about things and a budget that mothers my need to cobble together my own lights.


Got to thinking about HPS vs LED budwise, the other day.

Read some feller posit that what was missing from bi-color leds was that useless spike of yellow that sodium generates, so they started adding amber leds.:wtf::silly:


Hmm, I got a different take on it.
First.
400 Watts of LEDs will produce as much or more bud than 400 Watts of HPS.
Why bother, yah?
My goal is the same yeild with less than half the power consumed.

I don't think adding an amber or warm white emitter here and there will do very much good. (don't shoot, just my opinion)
The other difference from leds is how the lights turn on and off.
The HPS come up gradually, and when they fade to black, they radiate quite a bit of far red light.
Will adding far red at lights out produce fatter, tighter buds?
Ah dunno. But I have a small experiment going to find out.

Meanwhile we are testing some high output 660 nm. led arrays.
So far, I'm impressed.


(How 'bout your light DH?
Had enought time to compare it to your HPS grow yet?)


I used DWC for the last couple of mothers, but have started using coco for the bloomery now that I'll be SOGing many small clones instead of 2 or 3 beeg girls.
I don't have a lot of experience with either method but will offer help where I can.


I like your plan and will pull up a chair.

Weezard

[Horsemanrocks]

Might seem like pimpin'.
They frown on that around here.
But, I'll root about and see what I find.
When I ask for your directionâ?¦..It ainâ??t pimpinâ??. Iâ??m just thinking that your experienced eye might not overlook something that Iâ??m totally unaware of. Besides thatâ?¦.a couple of old guys with â??growsâ?� have more important things to be concerned with.

They look serious but they're just 3 small, cheap, muffin fans.
Leds don't radiate heat like incandescent lights or HPS/MH.
That's why we can have the lights right down on the canopy.
LEDs produce heat at the diode junction.
So we have to suck the heat out the back and dispose of it
Ok, the heat is dissipated out the back and not towards the growâ?¦that part I like. But the heat is still created and still needs to be removed. (I never quitâ?¦.do I). Donâ??t get me wrongâ?¦You be daâ?? man. If the UFOâ??s are even close to equal to 600W Hidâ??s , then I donâ??t really need that much light. 600 X 2 + 250 1450 watts in 12 ½ sq ft. Thatâ??s only 116 watts per sq ft. You can see that I havenâ??t completely given up on smaller flanking Ledâ??s. If there was a quality Led in the 50W range (at a reasonable price) Iâ??d still be considering that option.
Can you have too much light?

Lemme get this disclaimer out of the way.
Notice:
This lizard is not an expert at anything but loafing.
I don't have "the one true way" . I'm just an old fart who has plenty of time to think about things and a budget that mothers my need to cobble together my own lights.
Are you beginning to think that I have too much time to think also

Will adding far red at lights out produce fatter, tighter buds?
Ah dunno. But I have a small experiment going to find out.
Always interested in the results of a good experiment. I kinda feel that thatâ??s what Iâ??m doing now as the Hid/Led combo doesnâ??t look much like a popular experiment.

(How 'bout your light DH?
Had enought time to compare it to your HPS grow yet?)
DHâ?¦..huh?
Havenâ??t grown anything beyond garden vegetables yetâ?¦..and screwing around with all this minutia I probably never will. LOL

I like your plan and will pull up a chair.
Donâ??t sit on the edge of your seatâ?¦.I live rather rurally (kind of like living on the big island) and the accumulation process is oh so slow and painful. But then slow as I am, I am one persistent S.O.B.

Mahalo nui loa
Aloha
Haole Horseman