Atlas Shrug(Shrugged?)

[SkoomaHead08]

Heard about this book a while back when Stumbleupon.com was actually stumble, now its just youtube.... Ayn Rand wrote it.

I definetley want a copy of this!!!!:thumbsup:

Smoke Smoke Smoke Til my lungs Heart:stoned:

SkoomaHead08 Reviewed by SkoomaHead08 on 04-30-2009. Atlas Shrug(Shrugged?) Heard about this book a while back when Stumbleupon.com was actually stumble, now its just youtube.... Ayn Rand wrote it. I definetley want a copy of this!!!!:thumbsup: Smoke Smoke Smoke Til my lungs Heart:stoned: Rating: 5

[warfrat73]

It's probably worth the read, but like all of Ayn Rand's stuff it's objectivist ultra right wing propaganda.

[emilya]

Let me start by saying that no author has influenced me and my direction in life more than Ayn Rand. The 3 must reads are Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead and last, smallest and probably the most profound, Anthem.

Right wing propaganda? No way. To understand Objectivism as taught by Ayn Rand you would understand that what is presented here is the opposite of political dogma... it is the pursuit of ones own morals and desires simply for the sake of oneself. It is neither right or left wing. From Ayn Rand I quote: "No party today stands for America's founding principles in a manner with which an Objectivist could agree, and the likelihood is that supporting any party would imply your sanction of immoral principles."

[gypski]

Please tell us more of this objectivist theory. Do you believe that morals and ethics are static and changeless? I know there are paths that believe they are in flux. i.e. one is good for one, is bad for another.

I've found this. Maybe you could give a synopsis on it from your perspective? I believe in the flux theory. Subjectivism. :smokin:

Let me start by saying that no author has influenced me and my direction in life more than Ayn Rand. The 3 must reads are Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead and last, smallest and probably the most profound, Anthem.

Right wing propaganda? No way. To understand Objectivism as taught by Ayn Rand you would understand that what is presented here is the opposite of political dogma... it is the pursuit of ones own morals and desires simply for the sake of oneself. It is neither right or left wing. From Ayn Rand I quote: "No party today stands for America's founding principles in a manner with which an Objectivist could agree, and the likelihood is that supporting any party would imply your sanction of immoral principles."

[emilya]

Please tell us more of this objectivist theory. Do you believe that morals and ethics are static and changeless? I know there are paths that believe they are in flux. i.e. one is good for one, is bad for another.

I've found this. Maybe you could give a synopsis on it from your perspective? I believe in the flux theory. Subjectivism. :smokin:

Hi Gypski... Glad to see interest in this. I am an economist. When the early economists started developing the models we use today they were known as moral philosophers. This study of morality and how people react on the margins of decisions is the basis of all economic thought.

Is morality static and changeless? Absolutely not. Look at fashion as an example. I defy you to find a belly button in any picture from the 50's, yet today this sight is not considered immoral, just sexy. And even the concept of being sexy is treated today as the norm, in later days it would have resulted in scandal. The study of morality is fascinating and not only changes with time, but also with culture. Consider justifiable honor killings in the east compared to how this is viewed in the western world.

Objectivism is based on two principles. The first is rational thought. If something can not be analyzed logically and rationally then maybe it is based on emotion or superstition or supposition and the conclusions drawn from this analysis may not be valid. The second concept is selfishness. I don't do things for other people. When you live your life for someone else, it reduces the quality of your own life. I do things because they make me happy. Sometimes it may look like I am doing something for someone else, for instance, growing medicinal weed to help my aunt with MS, but actually I do this because it makes happy.

I have found in my life that the concept of Karma works and that it enhances the quality of my life to do things that "increase my Karma." You may argue that Karma is not a rational belief and if used in a metaphysical way, I agree with you. I however look at this term as describing the interaction of two other well known principles that are based in rational thought, the concepts of "pay it forward" and "degrees of separation" combined. When you do something good or bad, it influences at least 3 people. Good or bad, the effects of what you do are propagated throughout society. Do I help out in the soup kitchen because I am altruistic and feel that it is my duty to help? No, I do it because I am selfish and it makes me feel good. I also know that the effects of this work pay off in networking contacts and good will from those whom I have helped.

Does this make me a bad person? Let's just say that I will never be nominated for sainthood for my altruism. But, because those things that make me happy tend to help and enhance those around me, I might look like I am a very nice person even though I know that the things that motivate me are based on selfish principles. It's all a matter of perspective.

I will close with my favorite quote from the Star Trek series. Remember when Captain Pike was captured by the Thelosians in his wheelchair and could only communicate with a blinking light? Captain Kirk came to rescue him and was convinced that this altruistic action was the correct one. He was eventually persuaded that the virtual life that the Thelosians offered Captain Pike where he could again be a young and fully capable person was the most compassionate choice, and the episode ended with this quote from the Thelosian leader. "Captain Pike now has his illusion, and you (Captain Kirk) have your reality. May you find your way as pleasant."

Live long and prosper,
Emmie

[gypski]

Interesting reply, and I can find no fault, and wasn't looking for any. I like your idea of Karma too. Actually it all makes sense and I can relate to its main points about helping, and what appears to be help could actually be something else. :thumbsup: Bright girl here!!!! :lol5: Get your PhD. You're still young enough to make it happen and pay off.

Hi Gypski... Glad to see interest in this. I am an economist. When the early economists started developing the models we use today they were known as moral philosophers. This study of morality and how people react on the margins of decisions is the basis of all economic thought.

Is morality static and changeless? Absolutely not. Look at fashion as an example. I defy you to find a belly button in any picture from the 50's, yet today this sight is not considered immoral, just sexy. And even the concept of being sexy is treated today as the norm, in later days it would have resulted in scandal. The study of morality is fascinating and not only changes with time, but also with culture. Consider justifiable honor killings in the east compared to how this is viewed in the western world.

Objectivism is based on two principles. The first is rational thought. If something can not be analyzed logically and rationally then maybe it is based on emotion or superstition or supposition and the conclusions drawn from this analysis may not be valid. The second concept is selfishness. I don't do things for other people. When you live your life for someone else, it reduces the quality of your own life. I do things because they make me happy. Sometimes it may look like I am doing something for someone else, for instance, growing medicinal weed to help my aunt with MS, but actually I do this because it makes happy.

I have found in my life that the concept of Karma works and that it enhances the quality of my life to do things that "increase my Karma." You may argue that Karma is not a rational belief and if used in a metaphysical way, I agree with you. I however look at this term as describing the interaction of two other well known principles that are based in rational thought, the concepts of "pay it forward" and "degrees of separation" combined. When you do something good or bad, it influences at least 3 people. Good or bad, the effects of what you do are propagated throughout society. Do I help out in the soup kitchen because I am altruistic and feel that it is my duty to help? No, I do it because I am selfish and it makes me feel good. I also know that the effects of this work pay off in networking contacts and good will from those whom I have helped.

Does this make me a bad person? Let's just say that I will never be nominated for sainthood for my altruism. But, because those things that make me happy tend to help and enhance those around me, I might look like I am a very nice person even though I know that the things that motivate me are based on selfish principles. It's all a matter of perspective.

I will close with my favorite quote from the Star Trek series. Remember when Captain Pike was captured by the Thelosians in his wheelchair and could only communicate with a blinking light? Captain Kirk came to rescue him and was convinced that this altruistic action was the correct one. He was eventually persuaded that the virtual life that the Thelosians offered Captain Pike where he could again be a young and fully capable person was the most compassionate choice, and the episode ended with this quote from the Thelosian leader. "Captain Pike now has his illusion, and you (Captain Kirk) have your reality. May you find your way as pleasant."

Live long and prosper,
Emmie

[gypski]

No, I do it because I am selfish and it makes me feel good. I also know that the effects of this work pay off in networking contacts and good will from those whom I have helped.


Going back and rereading this line, it makes me think a person does the soup kitchen thing because they are selfless, not selfish. Especially if one is above the fray so to speak in the socieo-economic strata. Maybe I'm nuts, but I do things for the experience regardless of outcome in the broad sense. Some times, we enter into things knowing any possible outcome can arise believing one way, while those others may be going entirely in a different direction or for a different result. Everything I do has a reason, and I can't say selfish, a survival aspect...but also a selfless aspect. It brings to mind the Serenity Prayer, and things one can and can't control. :jointsmile:

[emilya]

No, I do it because I am selfish and it makes me feel good. I also know that the effects of this work pay off in networking contacts and good will from those whom I have helped.


Going back and rereading this line, it makes me think a person does the soup kitchen thing because they are selfless, not selfish. Especially if one is above the fray so to speak in the socieo-economic strata. Maybe I'm nuts, but I do things for the experience regardless of outcome in the broad sense. Some times, we enter into things knowing any possible outcome can arise believing one way, while those others may be going entirely in a different direction or for a different result. Everything I do has a reason, and I can't say selfish, a survival aspect...but also a selfless aspect. It brings to mind the Serenity Prayer, and things one can and can't control. :jointsmile:

not to quibble, but since everything you do has a reason... this is indeed selfish and indeed very analytical. You have made the choice to do things because you see a need to do them... and this is your personal evaluation and decision. If we throw out ego, a lot of times we can see that even though we like to think that something is selfless and altruistic, it is actually our own selfish desires for satisfaction that drive us to do it. Not that this is a bad thing, but it helps to focus sometimes to see the real motivator in our lives.

Emmie

[gypski]

Very good!!! Just what I was waiting to hear!!!! But, with the assigning of good and bad as being arbitrary, selfishness is in the mind of the individual. I will admit to some things happening because of willful intent, but the outcome is still never for certain. Kind of like being lured into entrapment through someone using what they know about an individual or individuals to get a given result due to total manipulation. And even if one knows one is being manipulated, the string has to play fully out.

Bottom line, everything happens for a reason, sometimes out of the blue, and other times by design. Its not always under the control of the individual that is on either end of what is happening. Only in the end is the full truth known.

I will also say, at the present time, I'm rebuilding my own belief system because of several events with individuals in my life. I'm in the middle of everything I've been trying to avoid over the past several years concerning cannabis and my use of it. I'm tired of being persecuted or prosecuted by a fucked up lying system, having a target placed on my back because of it, and then having to go through the bullshit legal system so it can cover its own abusive actions on non-criminal people. :twocents:

Now that might be selfish, but I think its altruistic for us all. Look what it does to regular people and how those who do it to us can even look in the mirror and call themselves compassionate people.

not to quibble, but since everything you do has a reason... this is indeed selfish and indeed very analytical. You have made the choice to do things because you see a need to do them... and this is your personal evaluation and decision. If we throw out ego, a lot of times we can see that even though we like to think that something is selfless and altruistic, it is actually our own selfish desires for satisfaction that drive us to do it. Not that this is a bad thing, but it helps to focus sometimes to see the real motivator in our lives.

Emmie