thanks rusty. That's a useful link to have but the one I was looking for was on this site about 4 months ago and had a lot of that info and pics of some of the earlier stage effects of all those issues. There's nothing happening like what's going on in those pics but I remember one from this other thread that was of an early sign of a ph issue, up or down I can't remember, where some of the leaves on the tops curled down at the tips and down and in at the edges. I'm trying to help a friend but can't seem to upload his pics he sent me. It's only on a few of the tops and he did just bump his ppms from 1250 to 1350 but is keeping the ph around 6.0. Whatever they still look great I just know the ladies are trying to tell him something.