are we to be free?

[crabbyback]

Abraham Lincoln's list of â??cannotsâ?�:
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot help small men by tearing down big men.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
You cannot help the poor man by destroying the rich.
You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot establish security on borrowed money.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away manâ??s initiative and independence.
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.

From the beginning of time, life on this earth has never been fair and equitable. There are no guarantees given for your safety and well-being when you take your first breath. Sometimes you are lucky and get good parent(s) that help you make your way as best you can. I agree, its totally unfair that a child would get bad parents. Maybe we should remove all children from their parents, just in case, to be safe?

In my lottery in life, I got crappy genetics. Longevity isn't looking too good for me. But, you know, that's just not fair. Other people get to live to be 100, why not me? So, is it government's or society's responsibility to furnish genetic treatment to "even the playing field"?

Why would anyone think you can legislate the "luck of the draw" and the kismet of life?

[boaz]

with all the talk of socialism in america and the growing governmental control over our relatively free marketplace, i feel the need to ask those of you on these boards a rather basic question. is the individual an important component of american political philosophy or is the will of the people of paramount concern?

this country has always led the world in its pursuit of the rights of the individual, understanding that the price we pay for those rights is a tumultuous life at best. as the rest of the world has leaned more and more toward regulating the rights of their citizens, the u.s. has only slowly moved in that direction. individual liberty has created a booming economy (for the most part) and a platform from which most of the modern worlds greatest advances have come. we see that embracing idea that the individual should be allowed such freedom has given us not only great wealth, but also an increasingly large gap between the richest and the poorest. now, with the call for government to do something about the poverty of this country, is it time for the end of individual liberty?

nikita krushchev, the architect of the post-stalin soviet union, once said, â??Comrades! We must abolish the cult of the individual decisively, once and for allâ?�. this blustering cold war icon also claimed, "we will bury you" and that it would be our working class that would be responsible for our downfall. he, of course, failed to mention that it was not the working class but the political elite and their military might that managed to keep socialism alive in his own country. are we to follow in the path of those failed relics or are we willing to allow a free marketplace to determine at what rate our morality overshadows our innate avarice? our politicians make the choice seem simple, equality for the masses or rampant greed. if we keep an eye to the future, the choice is not quite so simple.

the poll above is a rather stark black and white, with no middle ground. this is because there is no middle ground. either we are all allowed to freely live our lives or we must fall in line with what is best for society. to believe we can partially legislate such things is the ultimate in naivete.

I believe the framers of the California Constitution said it best: "We are, by nature, free and independent."

any 'ism that deviates from that runs contrary to nature and will fail.

We are independent by nature but also joined by common values in our communities. This works well in small local environments but breaks down at large top down approaches like all the 'isms of the world.

but we choose to be free from all the dogma of the world and believe in ourselves.

:twocents:

[GoldenBoy812]

What about positive and negative freedom?

You are free to do what you want (negative).

You are free to commit to a cause that does not coincide with "doing what you want". (positive)

IMHO, the issue arises when you hold two conflicting POV's very close, and an onslaught of cognitive dissonance begins to take hold.

Cognitive Dissonance

[tmayu2]

Everyone is born free to a certain degree but to live free isn't an easy task or a life of luxury. Our current (imperialistic or capitalistic, you decide) laws here in the US make us slaves to the goverment. Think about it, lets say you pay your house and your car off, but wait you still have to pay taxes on not only your income but again for property tax and then vehicle tax and sales and sin taxes which are ridiculous. So is it even possible to own something? If you don't continue to make payments on either they will take your house and car, even though you already give them about 1/3 of your income. On top of that find me the law that says you have to pay federal income tax, there is none. more slavery, so the government can pay it's ever increasing debt to the federal reserve which is a private corporation who makes the dollar out of thin air and loans it to our government. most people do not even realize these things, the politicians hide it so elequently. will we ever be free i think not as long as corporations run politics. we dont even have the right to do whatever we want to our own body i mean drugs, suicide, i mean how can suicide be a crime right? maybe im just ranting i hope it makes sense

[boaz]

What about positive and negative freedom?

You are free to do what you want (negative).

You are free to commit to a cause that does not coincide with "doing what you want". (positive)

IMHO, the issue arises when you hold two conflicting POV's very close, and an onslaught of cognitive dissonance begins to take hold.

Cognitive Dissonance

______________

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety will not deserve liberty nor safety and will obtain neither.

Benjamin Franklin

Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that's the stuff life is made of.

Benjamin Franklin

that is interesting, i guess we do have a sort of balance within our own conscience.

but what if what we want to do is the right thing to do? :smokin:

[veggii]

You my friend are actually pissing me off. How the hell is doing an honest day's work equivalent to slavery? Your post is ignorant beyond retaliation...


glad I could piss you off! your welcome :thumbsup:




My state seems to be fine. Maybe the liberal agendas in California have caused the poverty. Has that ever crossed your mind? I live in a very conservative state and our economy is doing very well. The only tent's I have seen are in the woods... Perhaps your state needs to rethink their values and politics.

this statement sounds like a selfish person only care about yourself huh?



First of all, if things are so bad how are you using the internet to post on this site? Secondly, if it is so bad, why the fuck are you hiding from the police? If homelessness is illegal and you are homeless, why not accept the free room and board?


fuck jail why you don't go try jail see if you like it ***hole



Yes you can change your situation. Bitching about how much your life sucks and how horrible our country is won't accomplish shit though. Clean your self up and go look for a decent fucking job. Mexicans can seem to find work, go pick some goddamn grapes at a wine vineyard for less than minimum wage if you have to. Instead of complaining go do something!

calling me a drug addict !! very nice arent you special
I'm Terminal ILL



Really, that's what America has become? Why don't you try living in Africa for a few years, or fucking Cuba. Your ignorance has pissed me off beyond belief. I'm sick of people acting like they aren't in control of their own life. Get off this fucking forum and go find a goddamn job! If you have one and can't afford to live: MOVE!

oh know I'm ignorant !! you should have a look in the mirror and see what ignorance looks like

Has it honestly never occurred to you to maybe save up a few bucks, hop on a train, and take a chance in a new state? You act like you have nothing to loose, so be proactive and stop fucking bitching.

I cant hop a curb let alone a train

you really are a piece of work man, this is exactly how are country got all fucked up is people like you!

[Ramulux]

Yeah man, this JaggedEdge character is absolutely ridiculous. I called him out on his crap on the last page but he just ignored me. I wish I was capable of emotionally distancing myself from my fellow man in the way he seems to have, then I would not have to deal with the pain I feel when I talk to all the people I know who are working 60 hour weeks and can barely afford rent and have no time to spend with their families. It would be nice to feel like their problems have absolutely no bearing on my life and the fact that they are struggling means they are doing something wrong, but I cant do that because I have this crazy, radical, idea that maybe human beings should help other human beings who are in need of help. I think a lot of the people who have posted on this thread would benefit greatly by simply having conversations with people who are on the bottom rung of the economic ladder. It might give you some perspective on what it is like to be poor in this country.

[delusionsofNORMALity]

Everyone is born free to a certain degree but to live free isn't an easy task or a life of luxury. Our current (imperialistic or capitalistic, you decide) laws here in the US make us slaves to the government. Think about it, lets say you pay your house and your car off, but wait you still have to pay taxes on not only your income but again for property tax and then vehicle tax and sales and sin taxes which are ridiculous.

the usurious and ever increasing taxation you are rightfully bitching about has nothing to do with imperialism and even less to do with capitalism, they are purely the product of the totalitarianism born of our slide into socialism. that decline and the left's championing of the socialist cause is why liberalism has practically become a dirty word in many circles.

the increasing growth of the nanny state and its attendant bureaucracy requires an ever increasing flow of our tax dollars to support its endless string of welfare enhancements and do-nothing social programs. those programs, designed only to keep a growing portion of the population under government's control and to make it look as if the bureaucracy is actually doing something worthwhile, are the reason your paycheck seems more inadequate with each passing year. it's not corporate greed or extravagant salaries amongst the rich that are sending our taxes through the roof, it is the greed of politicians for more and more power and the greed of the common man for all those things that he cannot afford but others can that are to blame for a national mindset that believes it is perfectly ethical to steal from those who have in order to raise up those who have not.

will we ever be free i think not as long as corporations run politics.

i realize that the liberal establishment has force fed us all the notion that capitalism is the source of all our woes, but capitalism exists only within the private sector and the private sector cannot force us into anything without the willing participation of a corrupt government. those evil corporations are merely purchasing a commodity (power over the people) that the government has no right to place on the market. i don't know why i have to keep asking this question, but i'll do it once again.

"where does the sin lie? is it with those who purchase that which is available on the open market or does the blame lie with those who stole those goods for their own profit?"

[tmayu2]

i realize that the liberal establishment has force fed us all the notion that capitalism is the source of all our woes, but capitalism exists only within the private sector and the private sector cannot force us into anything without the willing participation of a corrupt government. those evil corporations are merely purchasing a commodity (power over the people) that the government has no right to place on the market.

I agree mostly with what you say and i wasnt bad mouthing capitalism, except we dont have true capitalism. And while they cant force us to do anything without a corrupt government, there will never be a noncorrupt government the corporations are too powerful. If someone did try to do something they would just replace him.

[delusionsofNORMALity]

.....I have this crazy, radical, idea that maybe human beings should help other human beings who are in need of help.

there's nothing crazy or particularly radical about the idea of charity. charity is one of the few ways for the ordinary man to become truly great, but we must realize that it is charity and not some debt whose payment should be forced from us at gunpoint. the usurious taxation of those who do succeed for the sake of those who do not is just that, forced charity under the threat of violence and incarceration. it is theft under color of authority.

I think a lot of the people who have posted on this thread would benefit greatly by simply having conversations with people who are on the bottom rung of the economic ladder. It might give you some perspective on what it is like to be poor in this country.

guess what, i've been there and i know it ain't no bed of roses. i've been dirt poor and homeless in an uncaring world and, sure, i bitched about it, but i didn't blame the rich or begrudge them their pleasures and i didn't go crying to big brother for handout after handout so i could afford even the most meager of luxuries. i worked those 80 hour weeks and 90 hour weeks and even 100 hour weeks and i continue to do so when i can because i want a few of those luxuries i would like to become accustomed to. i keep a tenuous grasp on being middle class by working that much because i know it can all disappear so quickly.

as a matter of fact, it is disappearing. thanks to the threat posed to the upper middle class and upper class by fools like obama and pelosi, work has started to get a bit scarcer and i find myself dipping into my meager savings as my once thriving little business begins to slightly flounder. the socialist bent of the present regime and this country's seeming willingness to share the wealth through legislation instead of a free marketplace have tightened everyone's purse strings and can do nothing more than force the small businessman to close up shop and either go back to being a wage slave or become the indentured servant of the government's self serving welfare state.

as long as we retain the freedom of choice, even poverty may be bearable. without it, no amount of wealth will satisfy.