We don't need the government to invest in alternative fuels.

[5thHorseMan]

I'm beginning to think jaggededge is just a turban wearing imam in cave on the afghan/pakistan border. Since damn everything he writes is wholly disconnected from whats actually going on, or at best a gross misunderstanding of the underlying reasons.

Yes lets continue to rely on a fuel, that is not renewable, let some other generation figure out the solution. Lets continue importing oil, and funding terrorists, or drill for oil offshore, where the oil is not only of lower quality but exceedingly deep, and difficult to locate, yeah just throw in some holes with massively expensive equipment that guess, the oil companies will make taxpayers pay for anyway because guess what those companies are all subsidized, by you the American taxpayer.

[JaggedEdge]

man, i really enjoyed debating back and forth with you lately but since you basically claim that global warming is false i really cant take anything you say seriously anymore

Wrong. I don't "claim" global warming is false, I know man-made global warming is bullshit. Have you actually looked at the facts and checked their primary sources? Or have you simply accepted what Al Gore tells you and a few scientists? There are scientists that support both sides of the argument, so how do you know who to believe unless you look at the facts yourself?

[JaggedEdge]

I'm beginning to think jaggededge is just a turban wearing imam in cave on the afghan/pakistan border. Since damn everything he writes is wholly disconnected from whats actually going on, or at best a gross misunderstanding of the underlying reasons.

Yes lets continue to rely on a fuel, that is not renewable, let some other generation figure out the solution. Lets continue importing oil, and funding terrorists, or drill for oil offshore, where the oil is not only of lower quality but exceedingly deep, and difficult to locate, yeah just throw in some holes with massively expensive equipment that guess, the oil companies will make taxpayers pay for anyway because guess what those companies are all subsidized, by you the American taxpayer.

Wow, I'm being insulted by someone who can't even write a sentence using correct grammar. When you engage in a debate of this nature, it is wise to at least make an attempt at sounding intelligent.

Drilling technology has gotten much better. Even if it is extremely deep and sometimes hard to locate, it doesn't justify not allowing them to drill where they can.

Also, I have never heard domestic oil is of a much lower quality, but even if it is, we can adapt.

I love how you support the federal government spending a trillion dollars but groan about the cost of drilling equipment...

[JaggedEdge]

One other thing. We are still a long way's away from alternate sources of energy, so again, what is the argument against producing our own oil when it is needed.

I'm not arguing against searching for alternative means of power, simply saying the government doesn't need to be wasting our money on it.

[5thHorseMan]

There is little in the way of private investment however for even promising alternative sources. And even so there remains the issue of scalability, and potential failure.

This is the major failing point of agro ethanol, it's next to impossible to scale up production to meet the demands of the market place, and this ultimately lead to it's near abandonment as a fuel source.

Most companies don't want to invest resources in such a venture, but would rather just wait around and aquire the resulting patents. This leaves only a trickle of investment to develop these technologies. And for something as important for the future of the US's economic security, and with some technolgies too promising to simply wait on the back burner for the next twenty years, it makes a certain amount of sense to for the government to throw some money at the researchers and kick em in the ass, to jump start the process.

[Coelho]

All this hippie bullshit pisses me off. Why does it have to be "eco-friendly?" If there is a market for eco-friendly products they will be created. What you are talking about is the government interfering in our lives by saying we can only buy products that are eco-friendly. The environment looks fine to me. The soil still grows food, the water is drinkable, what the fuck exactly is wrong with our environment. You can take care of the environment without becoming a fucking eco-nazi.

Environmental carnage? What exactly is this carnage you speak of? The pseudo-science know as Global Warming? Species going extinct despite the fact it happens every day and has been happening for thousands of years? Carnage is a very strong word, yet I don't see any evidence of carnage taking place. Sure the smog in L.A. indicates a problem with pollution in the area, therefor they need to fix their own problem on their own.

I also like the hypocrisy of liberal thinking. I assume you believe Darwin was correct with his theories, yet we must save all these species and plants, we must save the environment! Darwin wouldn't care what animals live and die, it a part a nature. What every happened to natural selection and survival of the fittest? If your planet is changing, we and other animals will adapt, if not, we really aren't worthy of surviving.

Well... from this (and the previous) posts, i must conclude that youre a hard-line republican...

(BTW... from what were seeing lately it seems the capitalism isnt fit enough to survive in the long term, and so the america and its dream seems to be heading to its own extinction... just like the dinosaurs who ate all the plants [natural resources] and then starved to death...)

I'm beginning to think jaggededge is just a turban wearing imam in cave on the afghan/pakistan border. Since damn everything he writes is wholly disconnected from whats actually going on, or at best a gross misunderstanding of the underlying reasons.

No he isnt... the Muslins (or whoever you intended to offend) may be a bit extremists, but their ideas are not this capitalist/republican...

god i need to finish my degree and get the F out of this country

Indeed! Surely it will be the best thing you will do! I wish you good luck and that you succeed as soon as possible! :thumbsup:

[JaggedEdge]

Well... from this (and the previous) posts, i must conclude that youre a hard-line republican...

(BTW... from what were seeing lately it seems the capitalism isnt fit enough to survive in the long term, and so the america and its dream seems to be heading to its own extinction... just like the dinosaurs who ate all the plants [natural resources] and then starved to death...)
:thumbsup:

Nope I'm actually a hard-line Libertarian. I align myself with the Republican party on economic issues, welfare issues, etc. I agree with democratic principles on a few social issues, but ultimately I think it's up to the states to make their own rules, with only a few exceptions. I disagree that Capitalism has failed. The fact is we haven't haven't had an actual free market economy for quit some time now. If the feds would stop interfering with the private sector Capitalism may yet survive. The only reason we have as many problems as we have today is due to federal involvement.

To sum it up, I disagree that Capitalism has proven itself inefficient, however for the sake of argument I will agree with you. It is obvious at this point Capitalism hasn't worked, the only problem with that logic is you aren't taking into account the failures that occurred as a direct result of government intervention. From what I can tell, the government is like death, everything it touches withers and dies.

We started our shift to Socialism during FDR's era. At that time true Capitalism, true free-market economics, and our Republic began to die. Granted, America as a Republic actually got off track about 20 years after the Constitution was signed, but that's another matter all together.

The truth is, a lot of people in power want the free market and pass legislation to help the process along.

[JaggedEdge]

Oh, and back to automakers, of course they won't risk their money searching for alternative solutions if they think the government will spend tax payer dollars to do it for them.

If it is a matter of survival they will attempt it though.

[5thHorseMan]

Coming back to Coelho for a quick second. It's foolhardy to say capitlism is on the verge of extinction, by and large it is the preferable way of facilitating economic prosperity. And there are of course many different forms of capitalism out there, capitalism is just a general catch all for a whole of different theories and proposed economic systems, some of which share no more than the idea of private enterprise.

[overgrowthegovt]

JaggedEdge, I think virtually everything you've said was nullified by your assertion that the environment is fine. Letting the free market decide how much, if any, concern we should have for the earth, is just ridiculous. And believe me, I hate government intervention the vast majority of the time, but I think governments have a responsibility to keep the industries in line (including paying a decent wage no matter where the widgets are made. Products would cost more if this whole sweat-shop system was discarded, but so what? Do we really need so much shit?)

You really believe an instutiton that cares about nothing but money should be allowed to do as it pleases without having to answer to the interests of the population in general? Damn you, Adam Smith. It seems a lot of people tend to support the totally-free market without considering the tremendous cons it offers along with the pros (which I admit exist). Companies can do business as they like, as far as I'm concerned, except that they must be held to ethical and environmental standards.

I'll say it again, THE ENVIRONMENT IS NOT FINE. I'll buy you one loooong snorkel for that sandbox. I'm not even going to get into that one here...if you're not aware in 2009 that we've done a lot of damage, I can't help you.