Im getting good at rolling those flaming back flip joints I got it down to about 3 minutes after the mix is nice and chopped. I use a filter or paper filter and a organic rice paper. they burn perfect every time, I alwyas have to pack the J a little though Im getting better at that so it does not need any extra steps just cut roll smoke. I also have stopped using the grinders and just started using good sizzers or choppers makes a better mix especialy for rolling. When I use a grinder everthing gets supper sticky and messy. I dont belive in taking 4 hours to roll a Jay unless its gonna last at lesat an hour, with alot of people, but I do belive in a good smoke no runners and no roach. So what I have started to do and works well is at the place where the herb and filter meet I will but a thin extra peice of rolling paperaround the jay whe the filer meets. Not on top of the filter but on top of the mix, on the already roller J. This way their is an extra layer of paper right before it gets to the filter alowing the entire mix to get smoked before the last bit of paper close to the tip. This stops that last hit to fall off in a cherry ball of smoke. If your filter rolling skill is tight, you can hit it right up to the very end and all that is left is ash. Alot of people havegiven lots of props or praise to these Jays, and I have taught alot of people to rollem, but at first it does take while to get in the habbit of rlling insideout. But when you do their usualy perfect, no runs and smokes to the last bit, joint rolling is fun especialy when you pop out a joint like this in about 2-3 minutes. If I could do it quicker I would do that joint rolling thing at the Cup they have, because I have seen the winners joints they are good but the most impressive thing is how fast he rolles em, not how they smoke, not that they dont smoke well, but the one he rolled for me a year or 2 ago ran...allot. He rolls em in like 3 seconds, and can litteraly have a box of cigarets filled with Jays in about a minute.