Anyone else horrified their tax dollars buy death?

[Rusty Trichome]

"Kinda funny. This fucked-up, USA is at fault, twisted reasonoing you state here, is the same thing by extention. Some dickwads came over, and dropped some grenades (passenger airplanes) at our feet. Only difference, our kids hopped a flight, went to their country, and payed-back the favor. There has not been another grenade dropped on our shores, since. But guranteed, were I in New York that day, and the grenades had been dropped at my feet by these 'children' of allah...I'd have blown their young fucking heads off...just like you said you'd do to Steve."

I was talking about Steve talking about children in VIETNAM, dropping grenades at his feet.... and I said I would do the same thing... because HE(Steve) invaded my(Vietnamese) homeland, for reasons to combat communism(Fact), thus trying to force our western policies(Democracy) on countries half a globe away. Just cause Steve was in Vietnam, doesn't mean the war was Right, or just, or needed. This also doesn't make me "HATE Vets" cause I disagree with a war. The war in Vietnam was UN-WINNABLE... THUS we LOST it.. we lost lives, we lost money, and we lost respect.

Bummer the comparitave allegory escaped you.
Not to single you out, but since most progressives bash the values our fighters enlist and fight for, you get lumped into this category. They bash the honor and integrity of everything that we service members hold dear, as if it were the policies of the soldiers that get us in the position all countries eventually find themselves in...which is being forced to protect values, resources, allies and borders. If the threat of communism was so benign, then where did all those nukes come from on both sides? Political, social and corporate espoionage and sabotage was very prevalent, chunks of Europe were being 'absorbed' by the USSR, an arms race dominated the economies, and people were dying as a direct result.
Also, all the talk of Vietnam, but none for the geo-political enviornment leading-up to the war? No talk of the "Korean conflict"? Again...progressives miss half the story in a misinformed attempt to lay blame on the feet of that big, bad America. Taken in the context of the (then) recent world conflict with Hitler and Mussolini, the 1940 Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies (indonesia) after the oil embargo...a moral decision was made to assist the UN in stabilizing the region with the addition of troops. History can be so boring. But it sure helps one to know your history, if making moral judgements regarding the governments and soldiers involved.

Now to the Iraq war. Like I said earlier, how history repeats it self, just like I am. How we(USA) have NOT learned from history and its repeating itself in Iraq. The fact of the matter is... the MAJORITY of the country you live in, disagree with the Iraq war and want us to pull out. The current president got voted in(landslide), running on that ticket. Whether he does it or not, is up to the goonies in DC.

Comparing apples and oranges. Regardless of your 'feelings', Saddam Hussein calimed he had nukes...he told this to the world often. He refused to comply with twenty-something UN resolutions, skirted sanctions with the oil-4-food bullshit, and failed to comply with UN inspectors. Ultimatelly, he paid a heavy price that was dished-out by his own courts. Altruistic of us...? Possibly not as he had tried to assinate Bush 1. But, in our defense, he attacked his own people (and Iranians, too) with nerve gas, and he and his sons regularly killed and raped ordinary citizens for sport.

I also wonder why the last president was so popular, he did everything right, and left the white house in better condition then he entered. He must have done a great job the last 8 years to earn one of the highest approval ratings any president has had since record began.

Because he has people like you writing his epitaph before having the complete stroy...again. Generally takes scholars and historians a decade or two to acquire, analyze, disseminate and understand the true mechanics of an administration. Progressives, anarchists, socialists, facists and liberals all started 'disseminating' his administration prior to his taking the oath of office. Me...? I'm glad he kept my country safe, regardless of the fallout. (the constitution demands he protect our safety, and I agree with his motives) We presently have a foothold in the region, with some tentative allies on the road the democracy. The bank 'bailout' was/is/always will be bullshit, tho...and I detested the resulting manipulations by congress.

A mad dictator deleted, and a sound course for democracy in the region. What they eventually chose to do with these tennents of democracy...I guess time will tell, but Iraq is now stable enough to defend herself, infrastructure is still being rebuilt after decades of neglect and schools and hospitals are springing-up all over the country. Mission Accompolished, to quote a famous banner.

Now to Afghanistan, where our enlisted will yet again defend our allies, our values and our rights...with my full support and prayers for their safe, successful return. :jointsmile:

God I love America!

[the image reaper]

they were just saying on the news yesterday, that the 'first 30-day approval ratings' were in, and Bush is ahead of Obama, was something like 41% vs 36% ... evidently,the kool-aid drinkers can't read the news, (no surprise, there), but Obama is committing 30,000 MORE troops to Afghanistan, and plans to be there for a few years ... so far, he has reversed positions on almost everything promised during the campaign ... after filling his cabinet with old Clinton retreads (including the 4 that had to step down, found to be tax cheats) ... my question, for the liberal airheads, is: WHERE THE HELL IS ALL THAT 'CHANGE' YOU IDIOTS WERE CREAMING YOUR JEANS OVER ??? ... gullibility is one thing, but voting against the good of your country, thinking only to gain a lax marijuana policy, is treason, in my book ... Liberals, you disgraced yourselves, again ... :smokin:

[GrinKyle]

You forgot TIR, that I never said I supported Obama, and just stated what he ran on, and how he won. I'm a conservative, so I laugh when you all throw the "liberal" word at me, thinking that is a viable argument. I feel kinda sad that is the only thing I've pretty much read from you and rusty again and again.

Again, blame anyone but America. We can never do harm, besides, In god We Trust.

And Rusty, I find it funny you lump disagreeing with a war, with downplaying support for troops. Must be that "patriotic" word, that if you disagree with the government actions you are automatically un-patriotic. Cause whatever the US government does is the RIGHT thing, every time no matter what.

Btw, I was raised from both sides of the spectrum, and only then can you truly see the hypocritical arguments on both. (Grew up between Texas and Oregon.)

Like i said to OGG, its a lost cause. Respond you may, I shall not. This is clearly not a "I've won, so I won't type anymore.", but a "It really doesn't matter, so why waste each our times doing it."

[Rusty Trichome]

And Rusty, I find it funny you lump disagreeing with a war, with downplaying support for troops. Must be that "patriotic" word, that if you disagree with the government actions you are automatically un-patriotic. Cause whatever the US government does is the RIGHT thing, every time no matter what.

No. I disagree with those that slam one war citing half-truths and inuendo regarding another war, as a basis to blindly disagree with all governmental policies. If you are comfortable with the facts of an argument, you should defend those ideals. But likely you should be informed as to what the fuck you are talking about. As I stated, this wasn't aimed directly at you, but your statement was in line with so many others that wish to blindly follow that which they were taught in the liberal cesspools loosely refered to as centers for 'higher' learning, instead of finding out the whole story, the origins of the conflicts, and the timelines involved. (the World War 2, Korean conflict and Vietnam example.) This is called context.

Btw, I was raised from both sides of the spectrum, and only then can you truly see the hypocritical arguments on both. (Grew up between Texas and Oregon.)

Sorry...Not impressed. Sounds like you're leaning too far twords the Oregon side, lol.

...This is clearly not a "I've won, so I won't type anymore.", but a "It really doesn't matter, so why waste each our times doing it."

Clearly? Gee. I was just getting started. Was looking forward to your comments on context, origins and the false blame layed at the feet of our government and the soldiers that fight in your name.
If it doesn't matter any more, then what happened between your last post and this one? It concerned you enough to specifically answer my statements made in response to your statements, yet you got real vague here. Whatever. Altho I would never to assume my points are valid and shared by all, I believe this country is worth fighting for, and will debate any that wish to get their facts straight and counter my opinions with valid reasoning and/or insight. Cut-n-paste propoganda punks need not apply. :jointsmile:

[overgrowthegovt]

Funny how I keep getting called a fascist when fascism lies at the far RIGHT of the political spectrum, and its basic agenda is repression, which I do not advocate in ANY way.

GrinKyle, I think you're right...some people are just immune to reason, and the bombs will fly on as long as such attitudes pervade with an arrogant shake of the head against the stupid bleeding-hearts and their "fascist" agenda of peace.

[painretreat]

Thanks D/P: I will sadly miss the avatar. I don't care what it is, when it moves, it gets my attention--like the 2 legged horse running. I can't rep u, says spread the luv! I did and have, still doesn't work! Spring around the corner, pretty busy, sunny here!

I/R couldn't agree with you more. The big question during election was: Will BHO represent change. As I responded, yep---just a change in the name of the resident of WH! Which is ringing true.

Clinton re-jects: Yep. Today the attn general of U.S. was on T.V. saying they put a stop to DEA mmj dispensary raids!!! Right, nothing in writing, facts or anything else. He was speaking and I did hear it--then the late news, it was a brief statement saying they are stopping. Put local L.A.P.D. said they will con't to enforce the law. Basically, if they break they rules, they will get raided. That is o.k. But the A.G. saying that makes me recall don't talk- don't tell! Meaning this can re-start any day. Especially if U.S. don't make enough money off of them.

Our Gov't was so wrapped up in the 'Cold War' that we weren't watching these terrorist camps and doing anything about it, before it came to 911! They got our attention in '92 with the WTC, no one was navigating. I say, put stoners in charge of the gov't. We need a green growers party to unit liberals and conservatives! lol !

[Rusty Trichome]

Funny how I keep getting called a fascist when fascism lies at the far RIGHT of the political spectrum, and its basic agenda is repression, which I do not advocate in ANY way.

Those on the extreme right have been improperly labeled fascists for dozens of years, but try Googling liberal fascism...there's a cause or two you'd be interested in, I'm sure.

However, since you cared to comment...what do you believe a fascist and fascism is? Fascism Usually confused with marxism, but there's really too little difference between the two, and would be parsing minor details.

Looking at Osama's cabinet picks, and those he calls advisors...if you really do not advocate fascism...you bought the wrong CHANGE package, as it's getting pretty fucking hinkey in DC lately. My guess is he's got us headed tword a Soviet style economic collapse, and pushing of our nation twords the apocalypse in preperation for the impending return of the 12th Imam. But that's just my personal view at the moment, subject to change if he ever does anything within the constitution. (versus illegally gathering the power to the "central authority")

If fascist is too strong a word...perhaps communist has a sweeter ring? Either way...the views are anti-American.

Our Gov't was so wrapped up in the 'Cold War' that we weren't watching these terrorist camps and doing anything about it, before it came to 911! They got our attention in '92 with the WTC, no one was navigating. I say, put stoners in charge of the gov't. We need a green growers party to unit liberals and conservatives! lol !

What breed of stoners...?
Bummer those oh-so-insightful democrats keep cutting the intelligence budget and handcuffing their efforts. I do agree with the dropping the ball thing, tho. Wouldn't have happened with a fully-funded intelligence service, I'd imagine.

[overgrowthegovt]

Rusty...I never said I like Obama or that I believed much of his "change" rhetoric (not that it really matters, since he and I belong to different countries); I simply believe him to be the lesser of the two evils who ran. And before blaming him for the "Soviet-style collapse", let's not forget that said collapse began under a Republican administration.

While liberal fascism may in fact be a very real phenomenon (believe me, the bullshit inherent in mainstream liberalism makes me sick at times, too), but it in no way reflects my beliefs. I'm all for obeying a constitution, the government mostly minding its own business (but economic interference is necessary to stop corporations from pillaging the world), etc. I don't believe in any of the repression you associate with liberalism...what, may I ask, is even remotely fascist about being anti-war and anti-prohibition? I would genuinely like for you to explain to me how my views are oppressive and fascist. Or maybe that's just a kneejerk reaction you have to all ideas contrary to neo-conservative interventionism?

P.S., what's with all the "support the troops" talk? I support them by advocating that they be brought back home in one piece, before it's too late. I certainly don't want more fine young men to die so they can have a lovely heroic time playing soldiers and get their five minutes of posthumous glory. "Protecting values"...what about the values of other cultures? They're no less relevent, despite the narcissistic Manifest Destiny thinking that's still frighteningly ubiquitous.

[Rusty Trichome]

Rusty...I hope education standards become much more anti-government and anti-authoritarian, and fast...
...I try not to let my near-radical views get twisted by peer pressure, fanatical teachings of a failed education system, or a media bias.

Ahh...the Osmosis method of absorbing facts. You expect anyone to believe this crock?

The propagandists have done their job well. Every sexually expressive young lady who gets branded a whore, every gay forced to live in shame, every Islamic civilian killed for the protection of Christian nations, every STD acquired due to abstinence-only sex education, every struggling family that has to pay their tithe, every frustrated person who can't act on the desire due to the underlying abhorration of pleasure that permeates our society....this whole Judeo-Christian ethic has gone on long enough. As an obsolete form of oppression, it has to go.

Yeah...perhaps I'm just against those that pretend in one sentence to be sooo altruistic and open-minded to all the fags and whores, and in the next be so blatantly hateful and disrespectful to those that attempt to better themselves, and their surroundings. You are about as backwards and as insulting...as any other liberal I've openly laughed at.

...Whose holy book tells them to kill all the homosexuals, and outlines rules on the proper management of slaves? The Bible's one of the more repugnant texts ever penned.

Obviously you havn't read the Torah, or the Koran, nor the Bible. Slaves, whether endentured, captured or bought, are covered in the holy scripture, yes. Lets keep this in context, because your generalizations are borderline bullshit. How many Chrisitan terrorists have attacked countries or governments, worldwide, in the last 10 years? Last 20 years? Last 50 years? Last two hundred years...?
If you are feeling you identify with the poor oppressed black man, perhaps you should read about the centuries of slave history in Africa, prior to the arrival of europeans. (for starters)
The Africans have been buying, selling and capturing enemies, and making them slaves...since the crusades timeframe, long before the Dutch, Americans and others stumbled across the cheap labor force. Since the black chiefs felt little enough about his fellow Africans, to sell them into slavery in another country, then where is the shared blame? Where is Farahkans outrage at the original African oppressors?
Do you really think the African chiefs were blind to the slavery they were accomodating and encouraging? Got to the point of running out of neighbors, and were beginning to sell their own tribesmen and women. Among other nations, America profited from this fact, but the Africans got some good jewelry in exchange for selling their soul.
To come along and say we are the original sinners in the slave trade is at best, a sack of lies, and missing half the story. (again)

No, I haven't been drinking too much liberal/humanist KoolAid...perhaps you've been drinking too much nationalistic/security-obsessed/xenophobic/army-loving/nod-in-approval-as-civilians-slowly-bleed-to-death brandy.
The reality is that the media is much more hospitable to corporate agendas than it is to the radical dissidents. But I'm not here to discredit anybody's views on the grounds that it must be that damned media...I'll give you all the respect of assuming you form your ideas with your own mind, which is what I expect in return.

Are you ok...? Haven't hit your head or anything...?
Altered-reality counts as bullshit. You have posted nothing but a watered-down version of liberal Fascist teachings, attempting to show how open you are to the progressive-leaning pimps and queers. My flag doesn't wave that way, and I am damn proud of it.

IDK...You look pretty fucking liberal to me. But I think you're on the right track...at least you are watering your radical views a tad, and pretending to know the evils of progressive liberalism as an over-the-top knee-jerk reaction to the unknown.

[Mississippi Steve]

overgrowthegovt..... why is it that a canadian is trying to stir the political pot with an outboard motor in the US, when you don't even live here.... That smacks of the same political thinking as the US trying to bring democracy to countries that are run by nomadic tribes. Maybe you should re-think your loyalties....are they to canada?? or the US??
FWIW, if your not happy with the current political systems that are in place, I believe that you only have 2 real choices.... either become a professional politician so you can make changes in policy(thats what Obama lead the sheeple to believe), or move.

Whats your choice??