UAW's actions force bailout to die in the Senate

[8182KSKUSH]

but my bleedin heart liberal self says that no matter what we do we have to help the people first and for most.( by the way i said help not welfare state)

I understand what you are saying.
Let me re-tell a story I heard once, about a bird and cow.

You see, there was a flock of birds that lived on the prairie. Winter was coming and they were torn, torn between staying to eat, and leaving soon enough to avoid snow and ice.
They all decided to take off one day, all but one.
The one stayed behind, very happy that there was no more competition for food, he just ate to his hearts content. As the days went by it got colder. Then one day while eating some seeds, everything went black instantly. A cow had walked by and dropped a steamy hot pile onto the bird, completely burying him!
The bird was in some distress, panicking, and not able to get itself out of the pile. No one could hear his screams!!!
Just by chance the first snow had fallen, and while the bird did not make it south for the winter, he was ironically protected by the poo, and it kept him warm.
Soon, the bird noticed that something had found the pile'o'poo, and was saving him!
He was thrilled! He promised himself that he would join his brothers and sisters due south the moment he was free.
Just then, daylight pierced the poo walls, and the bird noticed that it was in fact a cat that had dug him out.

You can imagine what happened next, needless to say the bird never made it out of the pasture.
Moral of the story, sometimes when someone shits on you, they are doing you a favor, and sometimes when someone is getting you out of shit, they are just planning on eating you.:jointsmile:

[theforthdrive]

You wouldnt buy our shitty cars... So we'll be taking your money anyways!

LOL


This is how I fee about it. I grew up in a steel industry household. The steel industry has all but left and America has moved on. yeah, maybe not better, but didnt just collapse. I feel for everyone that is going to suffer but the auto makers have had decades to make a better product. they chose to cut corners treat employees poorly all to make a few executives and share holders rich. well good job, now I really dont feel a bailout would help. why? because the product is still shitty and will continue to be. the problem isnt that we wont give money. the problem is that once we give the money they will just operate as business as usual.

[maladroit]

"what was it specifically that UAW would not concede to? "

- the senate republicans demanded further wage reductions to put them at wage parity with japanese and european automakers (an impossible demand to meet on short notice)...the republicans wanted a specific date when that would happen so the UAW replied with the expiration date of their current contract in 2011...after the bill was killed, the UAW president gave a long press conference that sounded similar to our earlier discussion comparing toyota to detroit...i think he said something to the effect that if unions were expected to make wage concessions, then the legislators should demand that management and suppliers make concessions too...it wasn't the unions fault that detroit made the wrong kind of vehicles of lower quality, and now they're being scapegoated for the republican opposition to bailing out the automakers

GM's total market capital is only $2 billion...it's gonna be hard to get that bailout money back if the GM doesn't start selling cars real soon

[GoldenBoy812]

the senate republicans demanded further wage reductions to put them at wage parity with japanese and european automakers (an impossible demand to meet on short notice)...

If they are to fall into chapter 11 bankruptcy, those wage contracts will be nullified anyway. The UAW decided not to renegotiate their current labor contract, where the act of doing so is not impossible.

the republicans wanted a specific date when that would happen so the UAW replied with the expiration date of their current contract in 2011

When told this is a no go, UAW refused to compromise. ...after the bill was killed, the UAW president gave a long press conference that sounded similar to our earlier discussion comparing toyota to detroit...i think he said something to the effect that if unions were expected to make wage concessions, then the legislators should demand that management and suppliers make concessions too...it wasn't the unions fault that detroit made the wrong kind of vehicles of lower quality, and now they're being scapegoated for the republican opposition to bailing out the automakers

As Ron Gettelfinger squabbles about fairness, millions of UAW members slide closer to unemployment... It seems that what is important to Gettelfinger conflicts with his constituencies best interests.

GM's total market capital is only $2 billion...it's gonna be hard to get that bailout money back if the GM doesn't start selling cars real soon

Nobody is selling cars like its 2004, the behavior of the consumer is in hoard phase.
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Dr Peter Morici: UAW - GM Pact leaves GM at Cost Disadvantage
By Professor Peter Morici, Robert H. Smith School of Business, University of Maryland
Sep 26, 2007, 15:26

The details that emerged in the press today about the â??historicâ?� UAW - GM labor pact indicate the deal may prove the death knell for yet many more Midwestern manufacturing jobs.

Although, GM, by funding an independent trust, has managed to move retiree health care costs off the books, the residual liability remains unclear. As with the Delphi spin off, if GM must step in when the health care trust runs out of cash, this may prove nothing more than a bookkeeping rouse. Otherwise, Mr. Gettelfinger has set up his successor to deliver the bad news to GM retirees, that there is just not enough money to meet their expectations. The actual outcome will like lie between those two extremes.

That aside, much of GMâ??s labor cost disadvantage lies in the wages and fringe benefits it pays workers making cars today--those are not legacy costs. The pact does not much reduce the premium GM pays over Toyota, except only new hires. Temporary workers will be upgraded to the existing pay structure, and according to the Detroit Free Press, only those new hires that are not directly involved in the production of vehicles will be offered the new, lower pay scale.

Toyota already has the ability to differentiate pay among production workers and those that mow the lawn, and the fundamental cost disadvantage imposed by GMâ??s high scale for workers on the line remains. The pact does not call for new pay raises but it does provide for significant bonuses in the out years of the contract; hence, the pact raises pay but GM and the UAW hope investors wonâ??t notice.

Lost in all the coverage has been the fact that legacy costs are only part of GMâ??s problem. This pact does a lot to reduce legacy costs but not enough to eliminate the actual costs GM faces making vehicles today.
Other disadvantages will also continue to apply. For example, the agreement constrains GM investments, such as commitments to make certain products in the United States, that Toyota and other Asians do not face. The same goes for burdensome work rules and limits on locating and selecting suppliers to maximize supply chain efficiency.

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_1011290.shtml["]source[/URL]

[Mississippi Steve]

Good points.... but......

The way I see it, stinkfinger.....ummmm I mean gettlefinger is only in the auto bail out frey because his job is on the line. At this point, the only thing that will save the big 3 is to declare bankruptcy, which will negate the union contracts, then kick out the unions, adopt the same business plan and wage scales as Toyota.

Toyota made a nice profit in the same market as the big 3 auto makers.

Also consider that folks who are only making $5.50 - $8.00 an hour(Walmart wages) cannot afford to buy a car made by assembly line workers that are getting paid $75/hr.

[maladroit]

"The UAW decided not to renegotiate their current labor contract, where the act of doing so is not impossible."

- it was impossible in the deadline required to get republican approval of the bailout


"As Ron Gettelfinger squabbles about fairness, millions of UAW members slide closer to unemployment... It seems that what is important to Gettelfinger conflicts with his constituencies best interests."

- i agree and so does mr gettelfinger who said last week: â??Concessions, I used to cringe at that word. But now, why hide it? Thatâ??s what we did.â?�...the squabblers were in the senate whose sense of fairness was unbalanced:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/bu...prod=permalink


"Nobody is selling cars like its 2004, the behavior of the consumer is in hoard phase."

- the foreign automakers were selling cars like it was 2004 for *years* after detroit saw their sales slide...detroit is begging for a bailout while the foreign automakers are not because detroit is poorly managed...nobody is selling as much cars now that the bush administration kickstarted a global economic crisis, but the foreign automakers will likely survive the downturn without passing their begging buckets for a whip-round


"GM Pact leaves GM at Cost Disadvantage Sep 26, 2007"

- that's last year's news...the UAW made significant concessions since then

[GoldenBoy812]

it was impossible in the deadline required to get republican approval of the bailout

It could have been made part of the agreement, to renegotiate...

i agree and so does mr gettelfinger who said last week: â??Concessions, I used to cringe at that word. But now, why hide it? Thatâ??s what we did.â?�...the squabblers were in the senate whose sense of fairness was unbalanced:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/bu...prod=permalink

Obviously not, otherwise the bailout would not have failed...

the foreign automakers were selling cars like it was 2004 for *years* after detroit saw their sales slide...

Who cares what they were doing.

detroit is begging for a bailout while the foreign automakers are not because detroit is poorly managed...nobody is selling as much cars now that the bush administration kickstarted a global economic crisis, but the foreign automakers will likely survive the downturn without passing their begging buckets for a whip-round

There have been multiple auto bailout happening around the world.

that's last year's news...the UAW made significant concessions since then

Such as? Dr. Morici wrote this piece in response to the last major modifications made to UAW compensation via GM. Ford and Chrysler soon followed. Yet you recall the bold red highlight, the pact only reduced new employee compensation liability on behalf of the big three. Existing employees were and are still "on the books". Anything but overall cost reduction can not be considered significant, as the alternative is bankruptcy where concessions will be made a reality.

They have been drawing up this bill for a few weeks. The UAW has been notified prior and decided not to agree to an immediate arbitration hearing which would renegotiate wages to an acceptable level.

[SouthernGuerilla]

They should take that money and rebuild the American infastructor. It's long over due.

How many bridges, roads, rail roads, power lines and other "life lines" are in deperate need of upgrades and repairs?

Romans built roads that lasted thousands of years but we can't build a road that doesn't need to be torn up and rebuilt within 10-20years, or less.

Corporations control too much of the American government, not the American People.

[GoldenBoy812]

They should take that money and rebuild the American infastructor. It's long over due.

How many bridges, roads, rail roads, power lines and other "life lines" are in deperate need of upgrades and repairs?

Romans built roads that lasted thousands of years but we can't build a road that doesn't need to be torn up and rebuilt within 10-20years, or less.

Corporations control too much of the American government, not the American People.

It has been rumored that the second Obama takes office, a massive stimulus spending package will be passed through congress. Personally, i am thinking a $1 trillion stimulus. What they need though, is a carbon tax to help coordinate the efforts for when they pump $250 billion in renewable fuel technology.

Personally i am against bailouts. But..., if something like ATMS and debit fail, or if the unemployment costs of over a million people losing work dwarf the bailout, then gov might as well fix what they started...

[McDanger]

Let's hear it for the GOP. Why settle for a recession when you can have a full blown depression on your hands?

You do know the Democrats control both houses of congress, don't you?
They couldn't even get all of their own members to support it.